Why don't I feel safe when sheilded?

reaperx1

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The thing I don't get is why my shields will deflect enemy fire but lets them right in to ram me and then shoot me because their guns are now inside my shields. An enemy tech should not be able to pass through shields. They should have to weaken them with gunfire to drain the batteries. When there off then I get my ass kicked but not before. A few versions ago I could not drive through my own shields and now everyone can.
Could this maybe get fix or is that how it is supposed to be?

Have a good one
 

Azirahael

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I was under the impression that this was deliberate.

To avoid the situation of having to just sit there and shoot until his batteries ran dry.

now you have options.

Maybe back away from them?
Or build in a way that takes advantage of it?
 
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Jamie

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Shields are intended to keep attackers out of their perimeter...but it's interesting that @Azirahael likes that it offers a strategic option.

What do others think of this? We could fix this bug and then introduce a new shield that works this way? Place some thoughts here.
 

reaperx1

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How are you supposed to use a shield that can be passed through by the enemy in a way that has any advantages except that it may stop some incoming fire from guns that have not passed through already. A shield does not care what is trying to get through it is supposed to stop every thing until it is broken.
 

reaperx1

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I was under the impression that this was deliberate.

To avoid the situation of having to just sit there and shoot until his batteries ran dry.

now you have options.

Maybe back away from them?
Or build in a way that takes advantage of it?
Why state the obvious when not even asked for advice?
 

NihilRex

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How are you supposed to use a shield that can be passed through by the enemy in a way that has any advantages except that it may stop some incoming fire from guns that have not passed through already. A shield does not care what is trying to get through it is supposed to stop every thing until it is broken.
This is an energy shield, it stops small fast moving things.

A full on Bouncer shield that keeps techs out seems like a good choice for a Geo-Corp block, since they are supposed to be the defensive\noncombatant corporation.

Also, I agree with Azirahael that the current state of affairs is preferable, it gives people driving mining\exploration techs a chance against invaders which are made out of nothing but batteries and guns.
 
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Azirahael

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How are you supposed to use a shield that can be passed through by the enemy in a way that has any advantages except that it may stop some incoming fire from guns that have not passed through already. A shield does not care what is trying to get through it is supposed to stop every thing until it is broken.
Well, i was under the impression that the the shield permeability was deliberate, for the reasons mentioned, and due to the rebalance changes for collision/bores/rams.

See, one of the problems is that you can't use a ram or a bore on someone, if your shield covers the ram or bore.
and if you build it so it sticks out, it can eventually get shot off.

A permeable shield fixes that. Hence the mis-interpretation.



you may have noticed that there are significantly more things included in an update, than are listed on the update list.
So when you spot them, it's kind of difficult to tell if it's a bug or deliberate.

Jamie (i think) said that they are looking to make the Geocorp shield huge and cubical.
A huge cubical barrier shield that blocked bad guys entry, but not bullets, and regenerated the tough Geocorp blocks would fit well i think.
'Gunfire? Ha! We are too tough to care!'



"How are you supposed to use a shield that can be passed through by the enemy in a way that has any advantages except that it may stop some incoming fire from guns that have not passed through already."
You use it by building appropriately.
Armour.
Big blocks.
Not a big gap between shield perimeter and the rest of the vehicle, thus preventing many guns from penetrating.
Moving away from attempts to penetrate your perimeter.


I'll ask the counter question: if a shield IS impenetrable, what options do you have to bring down the unit?
If the unit is completely covered by shields (most are) what options are there?


"Why state the obvious when not even asked for advice?" Because you literally asked me (or someone) to.
"How are you supposed to use a shield..." that's a question.

"A shield does not care what is trying to get through it is supposed to stop every thing until it is broken."
Are you sure you want this?
Because that would also stop trees, rocks, your units, and the ground. and this might be troublesome to pilot.



It has been said by the Dev's that they want different corp shields that work differently, like only blocking certain types of things.
This would certainly be one option.

Y'know, big square blocking shields would be awesome on a base, and very dune-ish :)

"
"

(58m38s)

Sadly it won't let you link to specific time :(

Maybe they could build from the bottom up? :p
A whirring sound might be a cool sound effect. :D
 
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reaperx1

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Well, i was under the impression that the the shield permeability was deliberate, for the reasons mentioned, and due to the rebalance changes for collision/bores/rams.

See, one of the problems is that you can't use a ram or a bore on someone, if your shield covers the ram or bore.
and if you build it so it sticks out, it can eventually get shot off.

A permeable shield fixes that. Hence the mis-interpretation.



you may have noticed that there are significantly more things included in an update, than are listed on the update list.
So when you spot them, it's kind of difficult to tell if it's a bug or deliberate.

Jamie (i think) said that they are looking to make the Geocorp shield huge and cubical.
A huge cubical barrier shield that blocked bad guys entry, but not bullets, and regenerated the tough Geocorp blocks would fit well i think.
'Gunfire? Ha! We are too tough to care!'



"How are you supposed to use a shield that can be passed through by the enemy in a way that has any advantages except that it may stop some incoming fire from guns that have not passed through already."
You use it by building appropriately.
Armour.
Big blocks.
Not a big gap between shield perimeter and the rest of the vehicle, thus preventing many guns from penetrating.
Moving away from attempts to penetrate your perimeter.


I'll ask the counter question: if a shield IS impenetrable, what options do you have to bring down the unit?
If the unit is completely covered by shields (most are) what options are there?


"Why state the obvious when not even asked for advice?" Because you literally asked me (or someone) to.
"How are you supposed to use a shield..." that's a question.

"A shield does not care what is trying to get through it is supposed to stop every thing until it is broken."
Are you sure you want this?
Because that would also stop trees, rocks, your units, and the ground. and this might be troublesome to pilot.



It has been said by the Dev's that they want different corp shields that work differently, like only blocking certain types of things.
This would certainly be one option.

Y'know, big square blocking shields would be awesome on a base, and very dune-ish :)

"
"

(58m38s)

Sadly it won't let you link to specific time :(

Maybe they could build from the bottom up? :p
A whirring sound might be a cool sound effect. :D
The thing with the ram is that you can stick it through the shield and it will do damage and then you could put a regen bubble so that it is always healing, as long as you have resources in tow. Any way you are always bound to lose blocks along the way it keeps me on my toes.

If I use your idea of an appropriate build it sounds like I get that cube I keep hearing about. Can you show me an example of what you mean? If you don't have to worry about being rammed to death because your shields are good then you can build a lot more freely.

To answer your question about what you do to almost inpenitrible shields, the answer is that you use everything you have to drain the batteries and make them fail. Hitting them from the side and pushing while firing has worked pretty good for me when ever an enemy actually gets the power to use them. It does make it more of a battle that is for sure.

As for that part of not asking for advice it was really a retorical question. The part about "How are you supposed to use a shield..." is only half the question that is typed up above so maybe read it again.

I am sure I want this as an option, but you are right about the ground being a problem but I think it worked o.k. when it was like that before. I could drive around not get parts rammed of my tech by invaders when I am shielded. The other thing is I never got stuck on another tech or base at all. As long as resources and the ground can pass trough the shields can pass through I think that is pretty good. It is up to me to keep them powered. It would be nice to be able to turn them off when not needed to conserve power.

I like the idea of all the corps having their own shields with thier own properties, but why not use the current one for the gso? You could still make them another one on top of that one if you wanted.

Anymore questions feel free to ask.
Take er easy
 

Azirahael

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Well, i have put this to the test.

Just now, i was randomly invaded by one of Nihilrex's turrets.
And it had provided more challenge than any other unit so far.

Allow me to explain:
I'm driving this:

And that's my little charging station for between bouts.

I'm fighting this:

Now, i've got like 6 batteries, shields, 8 Ooozies, and around 8 lasers on that tech. (Thanks Mottflyer, for providing all those oozies :))

You'd think that could be enough to take down a smaller turret, armed only with hailfire rifles, right?

Nope.

See, Invader guns track you at constantly, and thus seem to have greater range than the same gun on your vehicle.
also, because this tech is rooted, and has solars on board, i can't hand out enough damage to bring down the shields, with it constantly regenerating both power and damage.

So, what am i to do?


Well, i've retreated for repairs.
Now i'm going on an adventure to find either a diamond ram, or a cerberus bore.
Then, after a rebuild, i'm going to come back, penetrate those shields and grind this guy down.

I have to admit, i am anything but bored :)

It's also good practice.

Sooner or later, we are going to have to assault static bases. with shields, gun turrets, generators and solar power.
This is a handy way of finding out what will work, besides 'more gunz!'

I imagine the other corps will have cool shield busting things, emp spikes and whatnot, but until they get here, we need some way to deal with this situation.
 
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reaperx1

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This is an energy shield, it stops small fast moving things.

A full on Bouncer shield that keeps techs out seems like a good choice for a Geo-Corp block, since they are supposed to be the defensive\noncombatant corporation.

Also, I agree with Azirahael that the current state of affairs is preferable, it gives people driving mining\exploration techs a chance against invaders which are made out of nothing but batteries and guns.
Bouncer shield kind of has a nice ring to it. For sure more shields the merrier but me personally I would change the current shield to something like I suggested and then make all the variations that there can be. I think it is a good shield right now but would be better the other way. My opinion.
 

Mottflyer

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With budgets stretched thin, GSO cannot supply the correct technology for GSO's shields. GSO shields rely on a special 3rd party chip that makes the shield block bullets on the outside, but not the tech inside. Entering enemy techs into your shield will not protect your tech.
 

reaperx1

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Well, i have put this to the test.

Just now, i was randomly invaded by one of Nihilrex's turrets.
And it had provided more challenge than any other unit so far.

Allow me to explain:
I'm driving this:

And that's my little charging station for between bouts.

I'm fighting this:

Now, i've got like 6 batteries, shields, 8 Ooozies, and around 8 lasers on that tech. (Thanks Mottflyer, for providing all those oozies :))

You'd think that could be enough to take down a smaller turret, armed only with hailfire rifles, right?

Nope.

See, Invader guns track you at constantly, and thus seem to have greater range than the same gun on your vehicle.
also, because this tech is rooted, and has solars on board, i can't hand out enough damage to bring down the shields, with it constantly regenerating both power and damage.

So, what am i to do?


Well, i've retreated for repairs.
Now i'm going on an adventure to find either a diamond ram, or a cerberus bore.
Then, after a rebuild, i'm going to come back, penetrate those shields and grind this guy down.

I have to admit, i am anything but bored :)

It's also good practice.

Sooner or later, we are going to have to assault static bases. with shields, gun turrets, generators and solar power.
This is a handy way of finding out what will work, besides 'more gunz!'

I imagine the other corps will have cool shield busting things, emp spikes and whatnot, but until they get here, we need some way to deal with this situation.
That looks like a good battle you had going. It does show you what works and what you will like the best and also how to adapt and build better.
Honestly even when they make these other shields the first thing that will happen will be that every one puts them overlapping covering their entire tech so why not. I guess it would probably make it a slower start. I know in 0.5.2 the first little bit close with little guys seeming to do more damage then normal. Is that when the shield was changed?
As for what to do, I am pretty sure the answer is overpower it with more guns, bigger guns. The emp or an anti shield block or gun that would need to recharge between shots would be cool to see. If I have spent the time and effort to create a base or tech I want to defend it the best I can. If the first shield I get in the game that I am most likely going to put on my base and it is vulnerable to a little techs drill, I am kind of stuck there babysitting.

And lastly
As long as you're having fun
 

Azirahael

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The thing with the ram is that you can stick it through the shield and it will do damage and then you could put a regen bubble so that it is always healing, as long as you have resources in tow. Any way you are always bound to lose blocks along the way it keeps me on my toes.

If I use your idea of an appropriate build it sounds like I get that cube I keep hearing about. Can you show me an example of what you mean? If you don't have to worry about being rammed to death because your shields are good then you can build a lot more freely.

To answer your question about what you do to almost inpenitrible shields, the answer is that you use everything you have to drain the batteries and make them fail. Hitting them from the side and pushing while firing has worked pretty good for me when ever an enemy actually gets the power to use them. It does make it more of a battle that is for sure.

As for that part of not asking for advice it was really a retorical question. The part about "How are you supposed to use a shield..." is only half the question that is typed up above so maybe read it again.

I am sure I want this as an option, but you are right about the ground being a problem but I think it worked o.k. when it was like that before. I could drive around not get parts rammed of my tech by invaders when I am shielded. The other thing is I never got stuck on another tech or base at all. As long as resources and the ground can pass trough the shields can pass through I think that is pretty good. It is up to me to keep them powered. It would be nice to be able to turn them off when not needed to conserve power.

I like the idea of all the corps having their own shields with thier own properties, but why not use the current one for the gso? You could still make them another one on top of that one if you wanted.

Anymore questions feel free to ask.
Take er easy
See, this bit here is the problem:
"To answer your question about what you do to almost inpenitrible shields, the answer is that you use everything you have to drain the batteries and make them fail. Hitting them from the side and pushing while firing has worked pretty good for me when ever an enemy actually gets the power to use them. "

What that means is 'Shoot at them until they run out of power.'
Hitting them in the side does nothing for the shield situation, all it means is that you might take a bit less return fire.
You have to hope that your DPS ratio to theirs, is enough that you can bring down their shields before they bring down yours. If not, you're stuffed.
If you can't penetrate their shield perimeter, you are essentially fighting a ball. You can't really get them stuck because there's not much to get a grip on.

Getting behind only helps you to the degree that it reduces their return fire, and skews the DPS ratio in your favour. And if you are up against the venture brick, or similar, this will not help at all, as it has 360 degree firepower.

"If you don't have to worry about being rammed to death because your shields are good then you can build a lot more freely." not really.
if your shield is impenetrable, you opponent only has one viable strategy: shoot at you until your batteries are dry. Which won't work if you have solars on your vehicle, and root on a hilltop. It's harder than it used to be, but it's still doable.
Or if you just go harvest and feed your generator (if you have one)

Because you have the one impenetrable defence: shields, the first oreder optimal strategy is to cater to that defence.
Yes, shields do free up some aspects of the design of your tech, given that shields and regen will protect you to a degree. but it trades out armour for battery power as the optimal strategy.

'You could put armour on your tech too.'
Why? put on more batteries, and the impenetrable shield will stay up longer. And they take up less space, and do not require space that could be used by guns.

As to designs for techs, the one listed above does reasonably well. there is very little gap between the outermost blocks and the shield perimeter. enemies could penetrate that perimeter with a weapon, and shoot me, but they won't be doing it with many.


Now, if nihilrex's shields were impenetrable, i would only have one option: come back with a tech sufficiently big that it can put out more DPS than the solars can recover from. and carrying enough batteries that my impenetrable shield stays up long enough to do it.
Nothing else would work.

Ramming? no.
Shoving a gun through the shield, at great risk? no.
Getting behind them? no. it's a turret. you can't stop them turning, and they turn quite quickly.
Wait for shields to run down? no. it's rooted, and the batteries are charging.

Like i said, this way, i have options.

Now, throw this forward into the future: you have to attack an enemy base.
Bases are rooted, and thus solar will work.
Most bases also act as recharge stations for your techs, so they usually have a lot of batteries to charge you rapidly.
And solars to charge those batteries.
and maybe even generators, and a stockpile of cheap refined carbius blocks.

If those shields are impenetrable, there is nothing you can do, unless you have a landbound dreadnought.
and that's not even a very big base.
six solars and a dozen batteries, and you're stuffed.
even coming back at night wouldn't help.
Goddess help you if it's a PC base with a stack of 30 salvaged batteries, and a big row of solars and a generator.

The dev's would have to deliberately design the base with obvious flaws to allow you to get in.

Better to have penetrable shields i feel.
 
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reaperx1

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See, this bit here is the problem:
"To answer your question about what you do to almost inpenitrible shields, the answer is that you use everything you have to drain the batteries and make them fail. Hitting them from the side and pushing while firing has worked pretty good for me when ever an enemy actually gets the power to use them. "

What that means is 'Shoot at them until they run out of power.'
Hitting them in the side does nothing for the shield situation, all it means is that you might take a bit less return fire.
You have to hope that your DPS ratio to theirs, is enough that you can bring down their shields before they bring down yours. If not, you're stuffed.
If you can't penetrate their shield perimeter, you are essentially fighting a ball. You can't really get them stuck because there's not much to get a grip on.

Getting behind only helps you to the degree that it reduces their return fire, and skews the DPS ratio in your favour. And if you are up against the venture brick, or similar, this will not help at all, as it has 360 degree firepower.

"If you don't have to worry about being rammed to death because your shields are good then you can build a lot more freely." not really.
if your shield is impenetrable, you opponent only has one viable strategy: shoot at you until your batteries are dry. Which won't work if you have solars on your vehicle, and root on a hilltop. It's harder than it used to be, but it's still doable.
Or if you just go harvest and feed your generator (if you have one)

Because you have the one impenetrable defence: shields, the first oreder optimal strategy is to cater to that defence.
Yes, shields do free up some aspects of the design of your tech, given that shields and regen will protect you to a degree. but it trades out armour for battery power as the optimal strategy.

'You could put armour on your tech too.'
Why? put on more batteries, and the impenetrable shield will stay up longer. And they take up less space, and do not require space that could be used by guns.

As to designs for techs, the one listed above does reasonably well. there is very little gap between the outermost blocks and the shield perimeter. enemies could penetrate that perimeter with a weapon, and shoot me, but they won't be doing it with many.


Now, if nihilrex's shields were impenetrable, i would only have one option: come back with a tech sufficiently big that it can put out more DPS than the solars can recover from. and carrying enough batteries that my impenetrable shield stays up long enough to do it.
Nothing else would work.

Ramming? no.
Shoving a gun through the shield, at great risk? no.
Getting behind them? no. it's a turret. you can't stop them turning, and they turn quite quickly.
Wait for shields to run down? no. it's rooted, and the batteries are charging.

Like i said, this way, i have options.

Now, throw this forward into the future: you have to attack an enemy base.
Bases are rooted, and thus solar will work.
Most bases also act as recharge stations for your techs, so they usually have a lot of batteries to charge you rapidly.
And solars to charge those batteries.
and maybe even generators, and a stockpile of cheap refined carbius blocks.

If those shields are impenetrable, there is nothing you can do, unless you have a landbound dreadnought.
and that's not even a very big base.
six solars and a dozen batteries, and you're stuffed.
even coming back at night wouldn't help.
Goddess help you if it's a PC base with a stack of 30 salvaged batteries, and a big row of solars and a generator.

The dev's would have to deliberately design the base with obvious flaws to allow you to get in.

Better to have penetrable shields i feel.
I see your points throughout your post but shields that enemy anything passes through feels wrong to me. Especially an energy shield or force field if you will.

If you look at it with an open mind you will see that it would only create a need for new blocks and weapons. EMP maybe or disrupter ray. It would be like the living and evolving game that I thought it was.

There is also that manual aim that would allow you to drive evasively and still hit your target. And no I do not mean sniper anything. close quarters combat.

Did you say that you anchor your tech in battle? If so is it a hit or miss kind of thing or is there some kind of way to force it to anchor? That could fix a problem I may face soon.

I hate to say it but it seems like you want weakness built in instead of challenge. I would not want to see it overly difficult but come on. The only answer that would satisfy both our play styles would be the difficulty option or selectable options.
I got the answer in the form of a question, what do you do when you are out of date and can't win?
serious question.
 

AJ1AJ

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I just want any anchored base that has 0 weapons attached to have shields that can be infinitely powered by solar panels. That way my base cannot get destroyed while I'm gone since it cant defend for itself and turrets are useless at defending. (they don't defend the base, they defend themselves). It would just be nice to have a safe zone. About shields on vehicles, it get annoying when the trees stop me from moving and I cant move next to my own base because it has a shield ( so I can't recharge). 2 shields would be the same only if they had the same stats apart from what gets blocked. (this way people don't add even more shield like items on so that they can get double benefits because they get no benefit)
 

IdontRuin

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Shields are intended to keep attackers out of their perimeter...but it's interesting that @Azirahael likes that it offers a strategic option.

What do others think of this? We could fix this bug and then introduce a new shield that works this way? Place some thoughts here.
I also like it how they are not a "perfect defense", right now it is possible to build "melee only" vehicles in the normal mode because of this fact.

But if we want them to be that.. how about a different bubble that protects against ramming attacks ?.. this way those that want can go and play the role of the barrier warrior, and others can use the ones they need, and everyone is happy ?

Right now the fact that you need to be careful about getting rammed makes it more interesting, sure it can be a pain, but anything that makes the player think a bit is a good thing imho.
 

Dan Andre Syrtveit

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I would personally like impenetrable shields. THAT is. you can shoot out from the inside. but no enemies can shoot in or drive through it=)


BUT When the shield goes down. it should have sufficient cooldown. even if you have a spare battery. it will become"overheated" for some time=) ?

NOW I dont know if the powerplants could drive it indefinately. that would not be good(in a base) it should be able to be taken down.

Thinking of the issue with constant energy flow(solar power)

so it needs to have 2 life bars.

ONE power bar. which is ultimate. and one "overheat bar" that can take a certain amount of gunfire before going down even if there is power enough to keep it=) ??

What do you guys think?
 
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Admiral Naismith

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I would personally like impenetrable shields. THAT is. you can shoot out from the inside. but no enemies can shoot in or drive through it=)


BUT When the shield goes down. it should have sufficient cooldown. even if you have a spare battery. it will become"overheated" for some time=) ?

NOW I dont know if the powerplants could drive it indefinately. that would not be good(in a base) it should be able to be taken down.

Thinking of the issue with constant energy flow(solar power)

so it needs to have 2 life bars.

ONE power bar. which is ultimate. and one "overheat bar" that can take a certain amount of gunfire before going down even if there is power enough to keep it=) ??

What do you guys think?
I think overheating could be a factor, though I would say there should be cooling systems that can be added to go with it. Also, with enough firepower it should be possible to overwhelm even base generators (even if that is not the case now), so then overheating might be making things a bit complicated...
 
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reaperx1

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I think overheating could be a factor, though I would say there should be cooling systems that can be added to go with it. Also, with enough firepower it should be possible to overwhelm even base generators (even if that is not the case now), so then overheating might be making things a bit complicated...
You can overpower shields on anything if you have the guns to do it. The big grinders seem to work good in combination with the 3 pound cannons and the small lasers. If you get the exp cannons you will do better.
You do need a big tech to take on a good size sheilded tech so probably double that to take on a sheilded base.

Bigger is better anyway

Have a good one
 
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