Why are bullets/shells/lasers so slow?

Azirahael

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Jan 8, 2015
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it seems a bit nonsensical really.

I mean, tanks don't dodge bullets.

and even Venture techs are bigger than almost any tank.
Heck, they're the size of a building.

at the speeds they operate at, they don't seem bullet-y or shell-y, and they certainly don't feel laser-y.

They feel more like spitballs, and lawn darts.

My suggestion:
Make bullet speeds and laser speeds faster. a lot faster. like twice as fast.
If this gives weapons crazy range, have the bullets/lasers fade out after a 'reasonable' distance. The lasers do this already.
Alternatively, limit the arc of fire, to reduce the range.

It would 'feel' better, and be more realistic.
Because at the moment, the vehicles and guns feel less like i am driving tanks and such around, an more like i'm driving an RC toy, with a peashooter on top.

Not that it stops the game being good, it just makes it immersion breaking, and less fun.
 

GameSpender

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Dec 21, 2014
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Yep. They should fix this. Sub Gun: old subatomic machine gun. Those bullets of yours look like gravity-less pieces of metal. FIX THIS!! Not to talk about "lasers"; laser is LIGHT. It doesn't go 1m/s it goes 300 million m/s.
 
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Azuratte

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I think the devs want a closer combat and higher bullet arcs because reasons. Which means that the speed would naturally have to be decreased to get the desired arc trajectory. The only ways to increase bullet speed and keep the arc is to increase gravity on all ammunition or drastically increase air density.


I personally would rather see air density increased as this would be more natural and if if you thought about it it would explain why planes take off so fast.
 
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Azirahael

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I think the devs want a closer combat and higher bullet arcs because reasons. Which means that the speed would naturally have to be decreased to get the desired arc trajectory. The only ways to increase bullet speed and keep the arc is to increase gravity on all ammunition or drastically increase air density.


I personally would rather see air density increased as this would be more natural and if if you thought about it it would explain why planes take off so fast.
I'm not sure the devs have a reason, beyond 'range'.
Granted, faster bullets and lasers would probably be a simple matter of changing a value on a page.
But then rebalancing turret turn speeds/angles to not make everything unexpectedly crazy would take a little more work.

At best the machineguns look like water spraying from an underpowered sprinkler, and at worst spitballs.
Different weapons need different features, like range ROF etc. and that's fine.
but even if they double the ranges, they would still be short.
More fun/believable maybe, but still short.

here is a vehicle which i consider to be 'not big'.

Notice the machinegun at the back.
notice that the bullets do not even leave the vehicle.
in fact, they land 4 -6 blocks away.
That's 12-18 metres away. approx.
i can throw fruit that far.
and it looks silly.

And yes, i know guns angle up to shoot further. the range is still rubbish, and it still looks toy-like.

I suggest that as a test, the devs release the next canary build with doubled firing speed for bullets and lasers.
or, when they release the regular build, chuck in a second one with doubled values.
No extra work to make the AI work different or anything.
just Bullet_speed= 0.1 becomes Bullet_speed= 0.2
And let us play with it and see if it's good/crap/insane.
or release a regular canary build with the numbers unlocked so we can change them ourselves and find good values.
 

Azuratte

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And yes, i know guns angle up to shoot further. the range is still rubbish, and it still looks toy-like.

I personally enjoy the toy-like nature of this game. It's why I purchased it.

But on top of the double firing speed, I would suggest also to increase air density ( or the value that imitates it) that I mentioned.


A canary build with a UI for modifiers, I'm curious to know just much work this would be. Curious because I think it'd be awesome.
 
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reaperx1

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Feb 25, 2015
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The ranges could be bumped up a bit across the board, but that is about all I would change if possible.

I myself like the way the game is done. It brings an imagination fed game that revolves around survival and battle to us in such a way that everyone and their grandparents could enjoy it.

If you get too much realism on every aspect of the game it would not be for such a wide audience. It would be more like a simulator that copies reality. Wheres the fun in that.

I like it the way it is. There is a reason I have played this game for more then 500 hours in all. Offline and online combined.

Have a good one
 
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Azuratte

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Ah.

Got it.

I'm assuming that this was decided after the fact?
Because the concept art for all the factions looks anything but toy-like.

I agree, the drawings do have more detail and help a lot with scale. They don't look toy like as the game shows off, the block models are awesome. maybe just more detail in the normal maps? *shrug*

The one thing I do like though is that the Techs in the concept art are very small, no uberTechs like some people build^. I would really enjoying having smaller tech sizes as a feasible tech. Right now it is go big or go home. Nothing agains't uberTechs, I build them all the time but trying to design within processing power gets tedious.
 

Azirahael

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I agree, the drawings do have more detail and help a lot with scale. They don't look toy like as the game shows off, the block models are awesome. maybe just more detail in the normal maps? *shrug*

The one thing I do like though is that the Techs in the concept art are very small, no uberTechs like some people build^. I would really enjoying having smaller tech sizes as a feasible tech. Right now it is go big or go home. Nothing agains't uberTechs, I build them all the time but trying to design within processing power gets tedious.
Yeah. there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between what the devs think is large or small, and what the people playing the game actually think is large or small.

I think part of the problem is that we didn't end up where they thought they were going to when they started.
The concept sketches do not look toylike in the fikkin' slightest.
And they definitely look like they were intending to stay considerably smaller.

But, the way things are, small techs are not only vulnerable, they are also less functional in many cases.
More functions=more blocks=bigger.

I call this small: (the Buggy, not the wall.)


This medium:

And this large:


I think the devs consider them medium, large and huge respectively.

And i think this is because vehicles have evolved to a larger size over time.
I bet when they started, they figured that 4 big boy wheels was all a tech would ever need :p
I also suspect that blocks may have had more functions originally.

I know i use the sizes that i do, due to handling issues.
I've built plenty things bigger than the recon base above, but they turn like a pig in an iceberg.
And that gets frustrating.
 
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Azuratte

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Hold up, what about internal blocks... stay with me. So you have your outer block, say a basic 1^3 block. This one block would then have a sub-block count of... say 8 for math reasons. Now in this you would put your shield and regen and batteries and whatever else the devs want. On the outside, no extra blocks to choke computers. Each addition of sub block adds a little model representing whats inside (to add a bit of detail).

Now devs hate this because they be like, but we wants things to pop off.


Cool.


Now each of those 8 inner blocks are a life!!!!!! So say you put 8 inner batteries on, small battery models appear on the outer cube to show there are batteries. But if it gets hit by a weak gun then a battery flies out. Hit by a mega cannon, 4 batteries fly out.


But say you load the block with 4 armor blocks and 4 batteries. Well now the block displays little armor models in simple toy detail but also 4 batteries. This block gets hit, now instead of randomly ejecting a part it has to hit the armor first because reasons, but it would require 2 hits to pop an armor insert out.... errrmagerrrrr i love this idea. No it works, you get the concept art simple 2-12 block techs. All the kit that you need to run a tech but all that cute little toy stuff we love. If you want to build silly big, sure why not. Ill let the devs figure out the rest...


Drops mic.
 
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Azirahael

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Hold up, what about internal blocks... stay with me. So you have your outer block, say a basic 1^3 block. This one block would then have a sub-block count of... say 8 for math reasons. Now in this you would put your shield and regen and batteries and whatever else the devs want. On the outside, no extra blocks to choke computers. Each addition of sub block adds a little model representing whats inside (to add a bit of detail).

Now devs hate this because they be like, but we wants things to pop off.


Cool.


Now each of those 8 inner blocks are a life!!!!!! So say you put 8 inner batteries on, small battery models appear on the outer cube to show there are batteries. But if it gets hit by a weak gun then a battery flies out. Hit by a mega cannon, 4 batteries fly out.


But say you load the block with 4 armor blocks and 4 batteries. Well now the block displays little armor models in simple toy detail but also 4 batteries. This block gets hit, now instead of randomly ejecting a part it has to hit the armor first because reasons, but it would require 2 hits to pop an armor insert out.... errrmagerrrrr i love this idea. No it works, you get the concept art simple 2-12 block techs. All the kit that you need to run a tech but all that cute little toy stuff we love. If you want to build silly big, sure why not. Ill let the devs figure out the rest...


Drops mic.
Err... so the internal blocks are containers for regular blcks?
That take up less space/weight than the blocks they contain?
and when they take hits, the contents pop out?
do i have that right?
 

Azuratte

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The internal blocks fit in to the blocks you know and love any standard 1x1x1 GSO or venture or 1x2x1 GSO Venture or the big boys of 4x4x4. But instead of having to make a tech out of 80 batteries to have the charge you want. You'd make the tech out of 10 1x1x1 GSO blocks and then fill each with 8 batteries. I'm not saying make everything internal, just the "systems/modifiers" like shield, batteries, armor, regen, and whatever the devs see viable.

More advanced stuff may be, you'd strap on a refinery, but to make it refine faster instead of putting 4 more refineries on, you could insert a few "go faster" blocks. These literally make whatever they're in, go faster, you put it in a refinery, it refines faster, put it in a tractor block it pulls faster, put it in wheels, they turn faster, put it in a gun it shoots faster. And maybe, a "make stronger" insert that on wheels makes them hold more, on guns makes the damage higher, on regular blocks it may modify them to require 1.2 hits to pop out instead of 1.0 hits. Then maybe a "make lighter" which would replace framework (but this is kinda weak idea).

These modifiers could be cute like this and be generic at the same time...

Edit.

And yes, when they take hits, the contents pop out. This would avoid the initial thought of "I don't want to attack him because it took so long to build this the way I wanted".

Now, say you are out of a fight, you got all shot up, now all you have to do to repair (if no major blocks were shot off). Is drive over the internal parts. The internal parts would be sucked up in to a "Cab collector" say it's a list of little bits you have. You just hit a "replace" button and the computer to the best of its' ability puts the modifiers back in their places. If you don't have all the modifiers, well, manually figure it out.

As for the major blocks, everything is normal as per the game is now. Some major block is shot off, well, fix it yourself. Drag a new one on or rebuild the tech.
 
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Azirahael

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The internal blocks fit in to the blocks you know and love any standard 1x1x1 GSO or venture or 1x2x1 GSO Venture or the big boys of 4x4x4. But instead of having to make a tech out of 80 batteries to have the charge you want. You'd make the tech out of 10 1x1x1 GSO blocks and then fill each with 8 batteries. I'm not saying make everything internal, just the "systems/modifiers" like shield, batteries, armor, regen, and whatever the devs see viable.

More advanced stuff may be, you'd strap on a refinery, but to make it refine faster you could also insert a few "go faster" blocks. That literally make whatever they're in, go faster, you put it in a refinery, it refines faster, put it in a tractor block it pulls faster, put it in wheels, they turn faster, put it in a gun it shoots faster. Or maybe, a "make stronger" insert that on wheels makes them hold more, on guns makes the damage higher, on regular blocks it may modify them to require 1.2 hits to pop out instead of 1.0 hits. Then maybe a "make lighter" which would replace framework (but this is kinda weak idea).

These modifiers could be cute like this and be generic at the same time...
Interesting.

I'm not sure this is wise.
There would be a lot of balance issues, and for what?
It doesn't give any new functions, just more of the same stuff in a smaller/lighter space.
Though it would give you the ability to pick up a bunch of stuff at a time.
Which is cool.
 
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Azuratte

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Well, it would fix the "ERRMAGERRRED I NEED A SHIELD NOW!!!!!!" by giving your blocks a visible health bar and it would fix the issue with having to have a ton of batteries or other things that make up your tech.

Might be an idea to just have the shield block just shield the block it's in. Then a "big shield" shield it and the blocks attached. This way there'd be no more eye-sore bubbles at least.

As far as balance goes... it is beta.
 

Coder

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I think the devs consider them medium, large and huge respectively.
Yes. Their original intent was probably different from what we ended up with. But if you watched the latest stream carefully, you know that they are going to make 5 sizes of guns and the EXP 2x2x2 "medium cannon" is only the second size. I think devs consider your techs tiny, small and medium respectively.
The internal blocks fit in to the blocks you know and love any standard 1x1x1 GSO or venture or 1x2x1 GSO Venture or the big boys of 4x4x4. But instead of having to make a tech out of 80 batteries to have the charge you want. You'd make the tech out of 10 1x1x1 GSO blocks and then fill each with 8 batteries. I'm not saying make everything internal, just the "systems/modifiers" like shield, batteries, armor, regen, and whatever the devs see viable.

More advanced stuff may be, you'd strap on a refinery, but to make it refine faster instead of putting 4 more refineries on, you could insert a few "go faster" blocks. These literally make whatever they're in, go faster, you put it in a refinery, it refines faster, put it in a tractor block it pulls faster, put it in wheels, they turn faster, put it in a gun it shoots faster. And maybe, a "make stronger" insert that on wheels makes them hold more, on guns makes the damage higher, on regular blocks it may modify them to require 1.2 hits to pop out instead of 1.0 hits. Then maybe a "make lighter" which would replace framework (but this is kinda weak idea).

These modifiers could be cute like this and be generic at the same time...

Edit.

And yes, when they take hits, the contents pop out. This would avoid the initial thought of "I don't want to attack him because it took so long to build this the way I wanted".

Now, say you are out of a fight, you got all shot up, now all you have to do to repair (if no major blocks were shot off). Is drive over the internal parts. The internal parts would be sucked up in to a "Cab collector" say it's a list of little bits you have. You just hit a "replace" button and the computer to the best of its' ability puts the modifiers back in their places. If you don't have all the modifiers, well, manually figure it out.

As for the major blocks, everything is normal as per the game is now. Some major block is shot off, well, fix it yourself. Drag a new one on or rebuild the tech.
It would be the way to go if devs wanted to encourage players building small techs. But based on the fact that they are going to make HUGE weapons I guess they want to encourage building big techs.