The Ultimate Water Thread

Lyons

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#61
I have another suggestion. Is there a way to add aerodynamics? Like so if I put slanted blocks on the front it can go faster than flat blocks. This would discourage things like pyramids.
 

Soviet_Samuelson

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#62
Okay, So i gotta agree and disagree with a lot of folks here. (Too many points to quote)

The first bit is about resetting game saves. and the answer is that adding water to the core game will probably necessitate a save game reset. But my question is why is this an issue. yeah it resets our game saves, but so what? this is neither a new phenomenon in the history of Terratech, nor should it even be a point of arguement because we are used to having it happen when major game changes are implemented. 'nuff said.

Second, land is procedurally generated. Biomes are not limited to spawn in at certain altitudes. sure flats seem like lowlands but this is only because it spawns in at lower elevation than it's surrounding biomes. drive around with an altimiter for a while. you'll find salt flats higher than the highest mountains in your starting area, and you will find the peaks of mountains far lower than flats local to the early game. So something simple like replacing a biome with water would provide an inconsistant sea level and would likely cause many bugs as well as seeming wholly unrealistic.

Now i do have a pitch for water, and to do so im going to reference the Water and Weather Mods quite often, as i really think Whitepaw is halfway there already. So, the water mod produces a 'sea level'. a variable altitude plane which techs ride on based on a 1:1 block weight ratio. (For example, Better futures blocks at a weight of 0.8 will float. GSO blocks at a weight of 1 sink. Aawkeye blocks will plummet to the bottom as they weigh 2-3 times what GSO blocks weight.) Thus, if the Weight to Mass ratio of a tech is less than 1:1 the tech will be bouyant and thus float on the water surface plane. There are a few bonus effects that the mod adds, like projectiles move slower underwater, and likewise techs move a bit slower to simulate water resistance vs air resistance. But that's prettu much all the mod does at the moment. It's great and adds a totally new dimention to the game (Several actually) but needs polishing and expanded function before adding it to the main game.

For starters, one idea i have been bouncing off of Whitepaw is deep water effects. Deep water should screen out lighting at certain depth. For instance. There could be three major conditions of water. Shallow, Open, and Deep. In shallow water, light is still effective, varied only by a slight blueish tint. when you dive deeper than the shallows, It is permanantly night giving some additional relavence to lights. Deeper still is the deepwater zone where light does not penetrate from the surface above. down here it is pitch black, allowing glowing crystals and lighted enemy techs to be seen from large distances, also necessitating lighting for navigation.

Further utilizing the shallow, open, and deep water levels, iv also been thinking about pressure. Pressure would be applied as an atmospheric height variable Damage over time Attrition effect. In shallow water, pressure is tollerable to all parts, but in open water 1 damage per second is applied to all parts. This will make sheilds and repair bubbles very prevelent in undersea exploration and combat, acting as a hull integrity feild to counteract the crushing pressure. Deep water would be even more harsh with 3 dps. this could also be applied at extream altitudes to simulate low pressure or vaccuum damage.

Further playing off of this Pressure DPS, similar effects could be applied to localised weather and water effects to make acid rain, corrosive pools, even lava. Actually this situational attrition could be used to simulate all kinds of environmental effects.

As a final note towards changing biomes to facilitate water. Instead of permanantly changing biomes. why not alter the spawning algorithm for scenery and resources to spawn in different things underwater, or better still at different depths. Consider replacing trees with coral (Different model, and yeilds carbide and trace amounts of rare minerals, but otherwise acts like trees) in underwater forrests, and adding oilite seams into any underwater biome.

As a final note, Waves. not sure how, but after some extensive testing of the water mod, it NEEDS waves. currently all water is glass, and the ocean is no pond. truth be told, it makes boating too easy as it is now.

so yeah, thats my bit on water.
gso should float(ish), as it uses wood, which is lighter than water. Blocks should also float at different points, with gso being slightly below surface, hawkeye being somewhat deep, so retrieval is a bit diffucult, and geo could even float a few blocks above the seafloor (props could help with that).

For the love of everything, don't wreck flats biomes by submerging them. Ugh.
oh, they wont, they would never
 

Mindl3ss

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#63
... Have you even read the rest of this thread, Layer?

my suggestion to you is to read all the posts here, then go read up on the water mod in the unoficcial modder's board. better yet, get it. use it. and know it before you start talking so definitively about what cant be done. You will find that most of your concerns have already been dealt with in the Water Mod, the work of a single person, @WhitePaw2002. so most of the coding already exists. MOST of the existing blocks either work well with water or even function slightly differently, like for example projectiles behavior changes dynamically, just as you have suggested. also, bouyancy is a thing in the water mod with every block sinking or floating based on it's material density. Bubbles and other power and fuel devices work just fine underwater, though movement speed is reduced, so thrusters are a little less effective. And anti-grav becomes ballast control under water. Iv even been trying to talk @WhitePaw2002 into adding pressure DPS to a certain depth to make it more realistic and necessitate sheilds and repair bubbles down deep, and a lighting mechanic that decreases ambient light the further down you go. But you'd know that already if you read the rest of the thread before posting.

and let me tell you. from ACTUALLY USING the water Mod for some time now, it, even in a primative form, is not just another biome. the ability to dive and submerge, explore undersea canyons, or take off and land on the water's surface, even tank crawl across the bottom, all add a massively new layer to the game. I think about submarine combat in multi-player, and deep sea bases in campaign mode. I think about a water based empire with towers reaching from the seabed to the shallows to gather solar energy and vast feilds of oil drills mining fuel and rare minerals from deep sea vents. I see submarines stalking warships from just below the surface, and a great floating city, whose lights are a beacon of salvation for wayward ships and aircraft. an eye in the perpetual storm that is the life of a Xeno Prospector.
 

layer1

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#64
I read the thread in its entirety before posting the first time, no need for snark. You're also glossing over a ton of complexity with "Oh a mod does this". It's not how easy it is to do a single thing, it's how those things snowball and consume time when it has to be developed and tested for PC, console, behave correctly in MP, maybe get introduced into challenge modes and maybe also R&D. However, this is all beside the point.

There are already a dozen mostly empty biomes, no end game content, and fabrication needs some love. Neither end game or fabrication are on the roadmap while fluid biomes are (long term.) Fab needs some love. End game needs something.

If water *is* end game content, great. Anything promoting building new types of tech is great. It wouldn't be my first priority.

Consider my previous post a message to PS since this thread was posted by them, and not a judgement of any idea itt (except that one idea. lol)

[edit] It's not a knock against the devs, either. They made great progress since I first started playing and the decision to continue development past 1.0 is awesome.
 
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Soviet_Samuelson

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#65
... Have you even read the rest of this thread, Layer?

my suggestion to you is to read all the posts here, then go read up on the water mod in the unoficcial modder's board. better yet, get it. use it. and know it before you start talking so definitively about what cant be done. You will find that most of your concerns have already been dealt with in the Water Mod, the work of a single person, @WhitePaw2002. so most of the coding already exists. MOST of the existing blocks either work well with water or even function slightly differently, like for example projectiles behavior changes dynamically, just as you have suggested. also, bouyancy is a thing in the water mod with every block sinking or floating based on it's material density. Bubbles and other power and fuel devices work just fine underwater, though movement speed is reduced, so thrusters are a little less effective. And anti-grav becomes ballast control under water. Iv even been trying to talk @WhitePaw2002 into adding pressure DPS to a certain depth to make it more realistic and necessitate sheilds and repair bubbles down deep, and a lighting mechanic that decreases ambient light the further down you go. But you'd know that already if you read the rest of the thread before posting.

and let me tell you. from ACTUALLY USING the water Mod for some time now, it, even in a primative form, is not just another biome. the ability to dive and submerge, explore undersea canyons, or take off and land on the water's surface, even tank crawl across the bottom, all add a massively new layer to the game. I think about submarine combat in multi-player, and deep sea bases in campaign mode. I think about a water based empire with towers reaching from the seabed to the shallows to gather solar energy and vast feilds of oil drills mining fuel and rare minerals from deep sea vents. I see submarines stalking warships from just below the surface, and a great floating city, whose lights are a beacon of salvation for wayward ships and aircraft. an eye in the perpetual storm that is the life of a Xeno Prospector.
i dont like the idea of depth dps, as IRL subs dont need repair bubbles. Once structural stress is added to the game (and water o course), then we can talk about this more in depth
 

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#66
Once again, Layer, i think you need to bone up on what the mod actually does. possibly even try it out before you call it 'a single thing' or say im 'glossing over complexity' by claiming a mod can do something. The water and weather mod is probably the most complex of the mods as far as how it changes and adds to game dynamics. also time consuming? the work has already been done... so im not sure how exactly importing a polished version to the main game would eat up anyone's time except for whitepaw's.

and more importantly, go read the title of this thread. yes the end game is lacking. yes we need more work on fabrication, and yes other biomes need fleshing out. but that is not the topic of discussion here. This thread is about ideas for WATER. i completely agree with you that payload has other things to work on. if you want to talk about those, start another thread. In the meantime, we're going to continue to talk about WATER and how it could be implemented, not what could be done instead.

So if trying to keep a thread from getting derailed by content irrelevant or directly opposed to the intent of the thread is being "Snarky", then report me. otherwise, back to Water.
 

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#67
i dont like the idea of depth dps, as IRL subs dont need repair bubbles. Once structural stress is added to the game (and water o course), then we can talk about this more in depth
Correct, subs dont use repair bubbles, they use structural fortitude and pressure differentials to maintain hull integrity. Well, TT doesnt observe either one of those things, and with the current state of the water mod, water tightness isnt a thing, so my thoughts on adding pressure dps and using repair and sheild bubbles as a hull integrity feild, will at best simulate reality a bit better. SHould they add true structural strength, we can talk about more realistic means of dealing with high or low barometric extreams. remember most of my ideas are based on the water mod's current form as that is the only example of water in game as of yet.

And i just had a very practical idea. @WhitePaw2002, this would be totally up to you, as it's your baby, but we might consider testbeding some of these ideas in the Mod. proof of concepts to the devs. who knows, we might save Payload some time, As per Layer's concerns. But, That's up to you Husky, if i could code, i'd already be adding my own content instead of begging you for everything i want.codertearslarge
 

Mindlessmrawesome

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#68
If you make a water biome, you'll have to code all of that (terrain generation, physics, lighting etc.) and then you're left with... a water biome. Blah.

You also need to add new blocks so techs can handle water, maybe change projectile behavior (dynamically, as they may enter water from the air or vice versa) and any other behavior (do bubbles work? wireless chargers? SCUs, and also how would they pull blocks underwater, floating, just above water? Do trading stations appear? Are there new resources, or will existing resources be present? etc.) and now you have.. a water biome, and some tech to handle water. Just like land but more tedious to use. Boring.

So now you need to add content so water is useful/required/high risk, high reward. So think of interesting content that fits into the theme of the game, doesn't introduce game breaking tech and other things to entice people to actually use water biomes instead of avoiding them. A ton of work for something that most people probably won't use, except to maybe build some underwater bases or skim over the top of using hover tech.

My suggestion for water is to work on something else. Do a major drive to eliminate as many longstanding bugs as you can. Improve performance of factory techs which is currently just dreadful. Make some end game content.

For the love of everything, don't wreck flats biomes by submerging them. Ugh.

you're overthinking it.
Devs need something to add to the game, water would make the world of terratech more dynamic. It would allow for more possibilities and more exploration options. It would also add an entirely new class of tech to terratech! ATM you have ground vehicles and planes, now you will have a third: water.

I understand probably more than you do the challenges of coding this, but it sure isn't impossible. Whitepaw proved it possible and proved it could work without causing crazy lag, what I proposed were mere extensions of what whitepaw has already done. While whitepaw made static water levels, I was suggesting localized water levels. Lighting and such will need to be figured out, but it certainly isn't impossible.

As for all the content, it is a mere process of adding more blocks. Buoyancy and stuff like that actually isn't that hard to code. You just need to calculate buoyancy for each block in contact with water (easily done with weight / space it takes up), then just reread my last message for stuff I suggested for adding to help techs make it through water. It really ain't all that hard to do, certainly time consuming but not incredibly difficult. And the devs already have a head start- whitepaw's water mod got through most of the bugs concerning water.

As for bullet physics and stuff like that, unity already has a lot of the needed stuff built into it's physics engine to make that. I already listed a high risk high reward idea for water- enemy boats and expensive underwater crystals that sell for like 6000 BB each (refined) that can only be mined with submarines. And part of them adding water would be to add a bit of a terrain challenge to the game, to make it so you have to use your design skills to make a functional boat in order to traverse the oceans. Make bridges or amphibious vehicles to traverse rivers. A lot of your argument falls short when you look at whitepaw's water mod and how people have adapted their designs to fit the water. Now imagine his water mod but with local water levels instead of a universal so that salt flats and oceans will be separate. The game will be much better that way.
 

layer1

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#69
so im not sure how exactly importing a polished version to the main game would eat up anyone's time except for whitepaw's.
With that level of understanding, there's clearly no need to continue the discussion. Enjoy your water.
 

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#72
Theoretically... This Moon (Yes we are probably on a moon) probably once had liquid water on it's surface. It still has Steam vents, so im guessing much of this planet's water was subverted as part of some extreme environmental disaster. Possibly explaining the lack of animal life as well. (Mass extinction) OR... All of those obelisks left behind may evidence that we arent the first prospectors to turn a penny out of this moon, and to them Water was the prime export.

Until Payload enriches their lore, we'll never know.
 

Saelem Black

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#73
I feel a bit dubious about the implementation of water, largely because it's not a small technical challenge. In reality, water physics is heavily contingent on total geometric shape, which terratech currently doesn't handle. I have no doubt it can be done, but I'd much rather see optimized processing, further (or less immersion-breaking) draw distances, and improved enemy tech behavior first. Or put simply, I'd rather the world content was deep-but-narrow rather than shallow-but-wide.

A middle ground might be swamplands, as mentioned earlier - a type of terrain which has a severe movement penalty on wheeled techs, and necessitates hovercrafts or fan-boats to cross.

That aside, if I do dream about what water would look like in TerraTech, something that comes to mind is the fact that ships are often an order of magnitude (or more) larger than land vehicles. It would be awesome if there was a dedicated naval faction with very large blocks, larger than GeoCorp. I'm told that rotating anchor-like behavior is forbidden by the engine for turrets on a mobile tech (which is very sad, and I'm not totally sure there isn't a creative solution somewhere). That leaves making very large rotating turret blocks for naval ships, which would demand an appropriately scaled faction, imo.
 
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#74
No, there's too many designs that sadly can't be used anywhere else besides the flats, due to TerraTech's recent(wow saying it's recent makes me feel old. Still think there should be an option to revert back to the old terrain generation, where everything's flatter) change in smoothness.
I still think the huge flat beasts that rely on the flats would have a nice time under water. My logic is this. The salt flats would maintain it's texture and physics. Certain blocks would react with water (i.e. boyancy blocks). Heavier blocks like Hawkeye and geocorp would simply not react, making them sink instantly. Propellers and hovers would work under water, but not jets, and combining lighter blocks with heavier ones and propellers would make it possible to have jumping techs, or submarines that didn't have to worry about having enough lift. Just enough gso/venture blocks to keep them floating below the surface but above the ground. I can't speak for better future. Those physics are still a secret to me... Maybe the blocks that react with water control distance below the water, instead of distance from the ground. So a sub would always be x distance from the surface, and you would have to find deep enough water or have backup wheels. Maybe landing gear. Those things seem cool. I build airships with the hope of one day yanking the internal 0g plates and cruising the waves. But I agree with the flats being flat. I just noticed they were already the lowest altitude, so sink'em.
 
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#75
Theoretically... This Moon (Yes we are probably on a moon) probably once had liquid water on it's surface. It still has Steam vents, so im guessing much of this planet's water was subverted as part of some extreme environmental disaster. Possibly explaining the lack of animal life as well. (Mass extinction) OR... All of those obelisks left behind may evidence that we arent the first prospectors to turn a penny out of this moon, and to them Water was the prime export.

Until Payload enriches their lore, we'll never know.
I feel like the "prospectors" are just mankind consuming another planet. We probably ate the animals and sold their hides... Water? We froze it and shipped it off world. Hence the flats. The core is heating up, causing groundwater to vent in great steam geysers, which we use to power the further destruction of the planets resources. Rapid climate change has caused huge, seemingly random glaciers to form in places where the smog blocks the sky. We're not just monsters because we build them...
 
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#77
Hi there everyone.

Couldn't catch up with the entire discussion but the few things I think off when coming to water are the following:

  • It should offer horizontal resistance to any blocks in order to drag.

  • Should push upwards any structure that is wide enough accordingly to its weight.

  • Should oscillate up and down to create waves.

  • Some new specific blocks that float and drawn in order to build boats or submarines.

  • Light reflects effects underwater would be awesome.

  • Coral and other minerals could be found to harvest.

  • Deep abyss? A place where no natural light can reach so you need to explore with artificial light
  • No damage taken unless electrical circuits are exposed, such as battery recharge devices and what this makes me think next.
  • ...Hermetic blocks that could create water-proof chambers?
  • Refinery, Fabricator, Furnace and such devices shouldn't work underwater unless these are inside a chamber which should also have some sort of valves to drain gases adding some bubbles effect on these...idk.
Also, I'm not sure about this, but I believe that loosen blocks should drawn so it is hard to recover pieces from the bottom of a lake or sea, but some could float too so it would be interesting...

Oh, and why not a sonar radar that detects techs, resources and blocks to show them on map?

That's all I have so far.
 
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#80
I think a new corp dedicated to water mechanics and weaponry would be a neat addition.
adding on to my post, I think the theme should be a color no other corp has. venture has racing (rwb) colors, gso is grey and white, hawkeye is black, geocorp is yellow, and better future is mainly white. i propose blue.