The Ultimate Water Thread

HayderHurder

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#44
I think something similar to the water mod should replace the salt flats. Same ground texture, just deeper dropoffs and water up to 0 altitude. They already drop below that. Just make the edges higher and add water. But you should need lightweight blocks and propellers to travel on it, and hovers should react to it. And to harvest the resources on the bottom, you need heavier techs with good tread on their wheels. It would also add a new dimension to combat, with mid weight techs being able to cruise below the surface, but above the seabed.
 
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Soviet_Samuelson

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#45
I think something similar to the water mod should replace the salt flats. Same ground texture, just deeper dropoffs and water up to 0 altitude. They already drop below that. Just make the edges higher and add water. But you should need lightweight blocks and propellers to travel on it, and hovers should react to it. And to harvest the resources on the bottom, you need heavier techs with good tread on their wheels. It would also add a new dimension to combat, with mid weight techs being able to cruise below the surface, but above the seabed.
nah, there ae too many techs that thrive on the flatness of the flats
 

harpo99999

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#46
how about (assuming the salts are at about 0),below 0 water, and above 0 all other biomes,( adjust actual water height for minimum salt flat height -2)
 

Lord Zarnox

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#47
how about (assuming the salts are at about 0),below 0 water, and above 0 all other biomes,( adjust actual water height for minimum salt flat height -2)
Salt flats are actually very far below 0ft. The altitude of the entire world will likely need to be reworked, to account for oceans being at 0ft. While there are many places on land below sea level in the real world, it is safer to prevent this from happening in game than to risk placing an ocean next to a piece of land below 0ft, resulting in a wall of water. Rivers could be higher, as they drain from higher altitudes into oceans/seas/lakes.

Oh, were you just using the salt flats being 0 as a reference point?
 

HayderHurder

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#49
nah, there ae too many techs that thrive on the flatness of the flats
In other words, too many designers that can't deal with terrain? Besides, most flat techs are big and heavy, so they would sink anyway, keeping the big, slow mechanics you seem to enjoy. I'm not saying they should do away with the flats, just submerge them.
 

NotExactlyHero

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#50
In other words, too many designers that can't deal with terrain? Besides, most flat techs are big and heavy, so they would sink anyway, keeping the big, slow mechanics you seem to enjoy. I'm not saying they should do away with the flats, just submerge them.
No, there's too many designs that sadly can't be used anywhere else besides the flats, due to TerraTech's recent(wow saying it's recent makes me feel old. Still think there should be an option to revert back to the old terrain generation, where everything's flatter) change in smoothness.
 

Lord Zarnox

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#52
How about a harpoon anchor that could be deployed underwater like a grapling hook? Maybe even a smaller and lighter version for ground techs. Could open up even more ways to make contraptions.
Alternatively, a standard ship anchor can serve the same purpose, and is actually designed for exactly this task.
 

Nuke_Pulse

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#54
Alternatively, a standard ship anchor can serve the same purpose, and is actually designed for exactly this task.
Do you mean those on irl ships or those that are already in TT? Because if it is the latter, the limited range is going to be the problem. The harpoon launch mechanic is just my way to give the anchor a bit more oomph to reach the bottom quickly.
 

Mindl3ss

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#55
Okay, So i gotta agree and disagree with a lot of folks here. (Too many points to quote)

The first bit is about resetting game saves. and the answer is that adding water to the core game will probably necessitate a save game reset. But my question is why is this an issue. yeah it resets our game saves, but so what? this is neither a new phenomenon in the history of Terratech, nor should it even be a point of arguement because we are used to having it happen when major game changes are implemented. 'nuff said.

Second, land is procedurally generated. Biomes are not limited to spawn in at certain altitudes. sure flats seem like lowlands but this is only because it spawns in at lower elevation than it's surrounding biomes. drive around with an altimiter for a while. you'll find salt flats higher than the highest mountains in your starting area, and you will find the peaks of mountains far lower than flats local to the early game. So something simple like replacing a biome with water would provide an inconsistant sea level and would likely cause many bugs as well as seeming wholly unrealistic.

Now i do have a pitch for water, and to do so im going to reference the Water and Weather Mods quite often, as i really think Whitepaw is halfway there already. So, the water mod produces a 'sea level'. a variable altitude plane which techs ride on based on a 1:1 block weight ratio. (For example, Better futures blocks at a weight of 0.8 will float. GSO blocks at a weight of 1 sink. Aawkeye blocks will plummet to the bottom as they weigh 2-3 times what GSO blocks weight.) Thus, if the Weight to Mass ratio of a tech is less than 1:1 the tech will be bouyant and thus float on the water surface plane. There are a few bonus effects that the mod adds, like projectiles move slower underwater, and likewise techs move a bit slower to simulate water resistance vs air resistance. But that's prettu much all the mod does at the moment. It's great and adds a totally new dimention to the game (Several actually) but needs polishing and expanded function before adding it to the main game.

For starters, one idea i have been bouncing off of Whitepaw is deep water effects. Deep water should screen out lighting at certain depth. For instance. There could be three major conditions of water. Shallow, Open, and Deep. In shallow water, light is still effective, varied only by a slight blueish tint. when you dive deeper than the shallows, It is permanantly night giving some additional relavence to lights. Deeper still is the deepwater zone where light does not penetrate from the surface above. down here it is pitch black, allowing glowing crystals and lighted enemy techs to be seen from large distances, also necessitating lighting for navigation.

Further utilizing the shallow, open, and deep water levels, iv also been thinking about pressure. Pressure would be applied as an atmospheric height variable Damage over time Attrition effect. In shallow water, pressure is tollerable to all parts, but in open water 1 damage per second is applied to all parts. This will make sheilds and repair bubbles very prevelent in undersea exploration and combat, acting as a hull integrity feild to counteract the crushing pressure. Deep water would be even more harsh with 3 dps. this could also be applied at extream altitudes to simulate low pressure or vaccuum damage.

Further playing off of this Pressure DPS, similar effects could be applied to localised weather and water effects to make acid rain, corrosive pools, even lava. Actually this situational attrition could be used to simulate all kinds of environmental effects.

As a final note towards changing biomes to facilitate water. Instead of permanantly changing biomes. why not alter the spawning algorithm for scenery and resources to spawn in different things underwater, or better still at different depths. Consider replacing trees with coral (Different model, and yeilds carbide and trace amounts of rare minerals, but otherwise acts like trees) in underwater forrests, and adding oilite seams into any underwater biome.

As a final note, Waves. not sure how, but after some extensive testing of the water mod, it NEEDS waves. currently all water is glass, and the ocean is no pond. truth be told, it makes boating too easy as it is now.

so yeah, thats my bit on water.
 

Lyons

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#56
Okay, So i gotta agree and disagree with a lot of folks here. (Too many points to quote)

The first bit is about resetting game saves. and the answer is that adding water to the core game will probably necessitate a save game reset. But my question is why is this an issue. yeah it resets our game saves, but so what? this is neither a new phenomenon in the history of Terratech, nor should it even be a point of arguement because we are used to having it happen when major game changes are implemented. 'nuff said.

Second, land is procedurally generated. Biomes are not limited to spawn in at certain altitudes. sure flats seem like lowlands but this is only because it spawns in at lower elevation than it's surrounding biomes. drive around with an altimiter for a while. you'll find salt flats higher than the highest mountains in your starting area, and you will find the peaks of mountains far lower than flats local to the early game. So something simple like replacing a biome with water would provide an inconsistant sea level and would likely cause many bugs as well as seeming wholly unrealistic.

Now i do have a pitch for water, and to do so im going to reference the Water and Weather Mods quite often, as i really think Whitepaw is halfway there already. So, the water mod produces a 'sea level'. a variable altitude plane which techs ride on based on a 1:1 block weight ratio. (For example, Better futures blocks at a weight of 0.8 will float. GSO blocks at a weight of 1 sink. Aawkeye blocks will plummet to the bottom as they weigh 2-3 times what GSO blocks weight.) Thus, if the Weight to Mass ratio of a tech is less than 1:1 the tech will be bouyant and thus float on the water surface plane. There are a few bonus effects that the mod adds, like projectiles move slower underwater, and likewise techs move a bit slower to simulate water resistance vs air resistance. But that's prettu much all the mod does at the moment. It's great and adds a totally new dimention to the game (Several actually) but needs polishing and expanded function before adding it to the main game.

For starters, one idea i have been bouncing off of Whitepaw is deep water effects. Deep water should screen out lighting at certain depth. For instance. There could be three major conditions of water. Shallow, Open, and Deep. In shallow water, light is still effective, varied only by a slight blueish tint. when you dive deeper than the shallows, It is permanantly night giving some additional relavence to lights. Deeper still is the deepwater zone where light does not penetrate from the surface above. down here it is pitch black, allowing glowing crystals and lighted enemy techs to be seen from large distances, also necessitating lighting for navigation.

Further utilizing the shallow, open, and deep water levels, iv also been thinking about pressure. Pressure would be applied as an atmospheric height variable Damage over time Attrition effect. In shallow water, pressure is tollerable to all parts, but in open water 1 damage per second is applied to all parts. This will make sheilds and repair bubbles very prevelent in undersea exploration and combat, acting as a hull integrity feild to counteract the crushing pressure. Deep water would be even more harsh with 3 dps. this could also be applied at extream altitudes to simulate low pressure or vaccuum damage.

Further playing off of this Pressure DPS, similar effects could be applied to localised weather and water effects to make acid rain, corrosive pools, even lava. Actually this situational attrition could be used to simulate all kinds of environmental effects.

As a final note towards changing biomes to facilitate water. Instead of permanantly changing biomes. why not alter the spawning algorithm for scenery and resources to spawn in different things underwater, or better still at different depths. Consider replacing trees with coral (Different model, and yeilds carbide and trace amounts of rare minerals, but otherwise acts like trees) in underwater forrests, and adding oilite seams into any underwater biome.

As a final note, Waves. not sure how, but after some extensive testing of the water mod, it NEEDS waves. currently all water is glass, and the ocean is no pond. truth be told, it makes boating too easy as it is now.

so yeah, thats my bit on water.
I like this idea but we also would need a light control. Right now lights only turn on at night and this would get pretty annoying seeing as it would make deep ocean travel only possible at night. I think we would also need permanent underwater vents for geothermal generators so we could have underwater bases. I like the pressure idea but I feel we need another way to counteract the pressure. Some type of pressure countermeasure so our batteries aren't drained as fast.
 

Mindlessmrawesome

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#58
Ideas for water: (a lot have already been stated but oh well)

BIOMES:
large oceans that generally require a boat or a plane to traverse. This will force players to make boats if they want to efficiently traverse an ocean.

Smaller ponds/lakes for prettyness and adding detail to the terrain

rivers that actively push blocks in the water downstream (they'll eventually lead into an ocean or lake). Some biomes should be blacklisted for rivers running through them, such as sand dunes (that wouldn't work all too well), salt flats (too low for the river to ever flow out of), pillars biomes (it'd probably ruin the aesthetic), and maybe glaciers as they are very cold and rivers would look out of place amongst the ice. I say maybe because MAYBE you could make the rivers flow through the glaciers in underground chambers like real life underground rivers. that'd be cool but would probably ruin third person camera.

Maybe add some sort of aqua-based mineral that sells for a LOT (like around 6000BB) that only can be found underneath oceans, which would mean you would have to make a submarine to go down and mine the mineral outcrops. Maybe drop the price if the mineral ends up being autominerable, but if it's like luxite and can't be automined then it should be very expensive.

Make AIs try to evade going into water at all costs (both enemy and friendly) until they are given a boat AI module or cab.

Sandy beaches with sand minerals on them! (like rodite seams and such that you'd find in a desert), or maybe add in sandy mineral piles.

Maybe get some new ocean ambient music? That'd be cool.

BLOCKS:

A block that is very bouyant (a float), a block that is very heavy (a ballast), a block that can be controlled via lift controls to be bouyant or heavy (ballast tanks), underwater weapons (torpedoes? Maybe a depth charge-like thing that drops and only explodes when it's in range of an enemy tech or collides with the ground?), underwater radar (sonar), and probably some more sloped blocks so we can more efficiently make hulls of ships. For ideas on that, take a look at From The Depth's selection of building blocks.

For power using stuff, I was thinking that maybe there could be a bubble that makes an air pocket underwater. This would be good for large transport submarines that want to keep their payload dry. It would also give you devs an excuse to not make watertightness (that sounds like a pain in the butt to make work)

Production: Maybe add an anchor that will drop from a chain, then once it hits the ground it will anchor and freeze the thing it's attached to. That way you can anchor in water! It would especially be useful considering the build limit is only 64 blocks in height.
 

layer1

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#59
If you make a water biome, you'll have to code all of that (terrain generation, physics, lighting etc.) and then you're left with... a water biome. Blah.

You also need to add new blocks so techs can handle water, maybe change projectile behavior (dynamically, as they may enter water from the air or vice versa) and any other behavior (do bubbles work? wireless chargers? SCUs, and also how would they pull blocks underwater, floating, just above water? Do trading stations appear? Are there new resources, or will existing resources be present? etc.) and now you have.. a water biome, and some tech to handle water. Just like land but more tedious to use. Boring.

So now you need to add content so water is useful/required/high risk, high reward. So think of interesting content that fits into the theme of the game, doesn't introduce game breaking tech and other things to entice people to actually use water biomes instead of avoiding them. A ton of work for something that most people probably won't use, except to maybe build some underwater bases or skim over the top of using hover tech.

My suggestion for water is to work on something else. Do a major drive to eliminate as many longstanding bugs as you can. Improve performance of factory techs which is currently just dreadful. Make some end game content.

For the love of everything, don't wreck flats biomes by submerging them. Ugh.