Should full release be postponed until the friendly AI is improved?

Should full release be postponed until the AI is fixed?


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Lord Zarnox

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#1
I'm suggesting this because I don't want the game to be criticised for the friendly AI being almost complete crap, and that would have bad consequences. We all want the game to do well, and leaving in half unfinished work (wow, that was pessimistic) from mid way through the development cycle could give the impression that you cant be bothered to fix something before release.

I'm not trying to come across as rude here; I understand you have a lot you want to do before 1.0, but when you have a dedicated community which is telling you you should change your priorities, there is generally a very good reason them saying so.

Now I'm not suggesting you immediately start work on fixing the AI (not that it wont be appreciated), but you should most definitely fix the AI before releasing the game.

Again, sorry if this came across as a bit of a rant, I'm just trying to get you to understand the seriousness of my reasoning.
 

ZeroGravitas

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#2
you should most definitely fix the AI before releasing the game.
I'm expect that you're preaching to the choir, here. @saiwun responded to my question, in a stream (months back), to say that they had time scheduled in already to fix the AI and crafting. I don't think there's any reason that should have changed.

I'm guessing we in the community are going to be pleasantly surprised by a sudden surge of bug fixing activity, in the next couple of months. It's been virtually silent as the coders had been quietly working away on multiplayer and secretly on console porting too. But now I've seen 2 coders engaging with the bugs forum, again, and expect more (or all) of them to swing onto these bigger fixes sometime soon, too.

No way they could do this full, 3 platform release without fixing this kind of thing. I imagine delays could well happen, but I hope it goes as smoothly as possible.:) (My 2 pence.)
 
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Khaine

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#3
(Wild speculation follows, feel free to counter/disprove/disagree)

As I understand it, sony and microsoft actually pay small developers if they'll develop their game for the consoles. So, getting the game in the consoles is a financial shot in the arm of lovely green bills (plus normal sales on consoles). Said financial shot in the arm will allow the studio to stay afloat longer to develop better AI and features for TT.

That said, I don't envision devs slowing down the release to work on the AI. It's a nice feature but it's not mission critical for the game to be release ready. Mind you, that's not to say AI *won't* get fixed soonish. I'm just saying AI fixing won't gobble up most of the available resources. Bug fixing is the most likely candidate for that.

PS: I'm guessing a release for the consoles is a time sensitive issue (contracts already signed, due dates and whatnot). I don't think the devs can go "oh wait, let's put everything on hold and fix the AI" at this point.
 

Zed

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#5
Ultimately It seems unlikely that "full" release would be delayed. As of this writing "Summer" 2018 has 91 days remaining.
While Friendly AI is far from perfect it does not seem a sufficiently significant issue to delay release. (In my opinion)

Here's what I am personally hoping for prior to the upcoming full release:

1) Controls update in concert and harmony with revamping gamepad functionality; Specifically Separating Rocket Thrust from Turbines / Propellers along with a dedicated Anchor Hotkey.

2) A Rock Solid Multiplayer mode that is Cross platform and able to be hosted indefinitely without memory leak / other issues. Headless Hosting can be post 1.0

3) A harder Difficulty setting available for campaign mode.
 

ZeroGravitas

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#6
1) Yes please, quite reasonable.

2) Cross platform sounds sensationally hard to me (but memory leaks have to go, of course).

3) All the (big) YouTubers do seem shocked just how easy the enemies go down each time. Something needs tweaking here, at the least, as a quick fix. But I think a longer term a game plus mode, or just major end game content extension. Major enemy AI improvement could be a way to help resolve this too, as it happens.
 
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Deutsche Würfel

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#7
I'm expect that you're preaching to the choir, here. @saiwun responded to my question, in a stream (months back), to say that they had time scheduled in already to fix the AI and crafting. I don't think there's any reason that should have changed.

I'm guessing we in the community are going to be pleasantly surprised by a sudden surge of bug fixing activity, in the next couple of months. It's been virtually silent as the coders had been quietly working away on multiplayer and secretly on console porting too. But now I've seen 2 coders engaging with the bugs forum, again, and expect more (or all) of them to swing onto these bigger fixes sometime soon, too.

No way they could do this full, 3 platform release without fixing this kind of thing. I imagine delays could well happen, but I hope it goes as smoothly as possible.:) (My 2 pence.)
Well then. Someone is outright lying then. Because jamie said they'd get to it after 1.0. And telling us stuff is his whole job.

Me, i want it. And i think that releaseing with busted AI is the worst move possible.
 

Khaine

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#11
3) All the (big) YouTubers do seem shocked just how easy the enemies go down each time. Something needds tweaking here, at the least, as a quick fix. But I think a longer term a game plus mode, or just major end game content extension. Major enemy AI improvement could be a way to help resolve this too, as it happens.
I suspect the problem is either:

a) Techs get thrown at you randomly. No rhyme nor reason, they're just pulled randomly off the list and dumped into combat with you. There's no tech/threat level saying "throw harder mechs at the player, he's already Hawkeye 3!"

b) Techs that engage you in combat aren't necessarily combat techs. While destroying a big harvester or a factory tech is very satisfying (to me, at least), it's not an actual challenge because chances are he was wildly outgunned by my own tech's weaponry. This lack of combat design makes the enemy very squishy.

Mind you, neither of these things are actually AI related. The enemy AI does its job decently enough and doesn't really need tweaking, although zed did suggest somewhere that a "begin firing immediately even if out of range" AI bug be reintroduced as a feature, which I agree with.

But I digress. The issue at hand is friendly AI, not enemy AI :)
 
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ZeroGravitas

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#12
suspect the problem is either:

a) Techs get thrown at you randomly. No rhyme nor reason,
Higher enemy tech values are unlocked by higher GSO licences. Techs with other corp parts by those licences. And possibly some tuning factor to do with the composition of the tech you are piloting (although this has been uncertain in the past).

The big issues making enemies easy are that their blocks fall off from taking damage far sooner than on player techs. They are paralysed beyond 200m from you. They stop being able to fire at extremely close range. They are spawned with all shields and regen bubbles down (or is that just invaders?). (This might be dim-whited speculation: I'm not sure they all have full batteries either.)

But yeah, off topic.:rolleyes:
 
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layer1

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#13
sath
The big issues making enemies easy are that their blocks fall off from taking damage far sooner than on player techs. They are paralysed beyond 200m from you. They stop being able to fire at extremely close range. They are spawned with all shields and regen bubbles down (or is that just invaders?). (This might be dim-whited speculation: I'm not sure they all have full batteries either.)
Regular techs spawn with bubbles down, or at least some of them. I catch a bunch with their repair bubbles still booting up. I'm pretty sure they all have full batteries.

Some techs also forget how to drive and jerk back and forth endlessly, too. That might be due to mission techs wandering too far from their spawn--idk but I've seen that.

In any case I'd like to see a lot of bug fixing above and beyond friendly AI before 1.0, but given the console release and MP effort, it's probably going to take some time. Voted Yes to wait even though I never use followers.
 

Deutsche Würfel

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#15
here: https://forum.terratechgame.com/ind...ss-coming-to-console.16068/page-4#post-113602
and: https://forum.terratechgame.com/ind...ss-coming-to-console.16068/page-3#post-112158

So working AI is going to happen after 1.0 according to the person who's job it is to tell us stuff.
Maybe Saiwun is wrong. Maybe they changed their minds?

Probably it will turn out to be too hard. Like it is for a lot of companies who discover they cannot devote programmers to something, after all the money has been made.
 

ZeroGravitas

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#17
Oh thanks. Sorry, I must have stopped following that thread after the 2nd page (other stuff happening). And so, this thread, here, directly stems from that discussion then (with all you lot in the know).:oops:

1.0 Improved AI - No.
Post 1.0 Improved AI - we all hope so.
A very brief answer on an involved subject. I'd interpret it as no AI rewrite - friend AI's not getting smarter. But maybe there's some problems with it that are low hanging fruit. Little bugs, like it not being able to drive tracks forwards at all (last I tested).

as saiwun is higher in the payload systems
Nah. It's a team effort, I'm sure they're all on the same page. And what he said was a couple months before this, in passing, on a stream. Again, even more scant on details.

I guess we'll have to see. But I'd be surprised if the console approval processes would be happy with the friendly AI function as we've been seeing it. (If it works at all as I imagine - I know nothing.:rolleyes:)
 
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列支敦士登yuki

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#18
(on behalf of myself)
No,:cool: I don't think AI's problem is important. We prefer the production team to design more blocks, especially weapons.
There are many things you want to design, such as (small) JU-87G, HS-129. I can't make it
Or because some weapons are not powerful enough......:confused:
I personally have something to design, such as skid, non guided bombs, explosives / landmine launchers, more forms of wings, aircraft special weapons, and so on..........:D
 
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Lost Ninja

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#19
Personally I wouldn't hold my breath on better AI of any kind. When AAA games can release with frankly awful AI, I very much doubt AI that does work even if poorly will be top of anyone's list of things that must be fixed. On top of which good AI generally requires someone versed in writing good AI (above and beyond general coding), Payload may have someone like this but I'd have thought if they did AI would have been steadily improving.
 

ZeroGravitas

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#20
On top of which good AI generally requires someone versed in writing good AI (above and beyond general coding)
I'm not sure. I kind of imagine that there must be a lot of copy-paste AI solutions and modules out there, these days, that a general good coder could implement, without needing to entirely re-invent the wheel...

But I'm probably wrong. Maybe licencing issues, etc...? (I wanted to develop AI myself, a decade ago, on my cybernetics undergrad degree, before stuff went too wrong.)