GSO Grade 4 Weapon - GSO Bounder Grenade Launcher

Should we include this in the game?


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Lord Zarnox

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#1
I find it odd that GSO Grade 4 is the only grade of any corporation to not add any weapons at all (excluding the Special Corporation, but this one makes sense), so I decided I'd make one myself.
You can view it on Sketchfab: HERE
Bounder.PNG
GSO Bounder Grenade Launcher

Concept by Lord Zarnox
This is the GSO Bounder Grenade Launcher. It fires bouncing grenades which will bounce between 1-3 times, before detonating on the next collision unless it detonates earlier. The number of bounces is determined upon the grenade projectile being instantiated, where the object selects a random number between 1-16 (inclusive) and it will only bounce once if the number is 1-12, twice for 13-15, and three times for 16. Until the grenade runs out of bounces, it will not detonate, unless it comes into contact with an enemy tech. This means that the weapon can easily be quite chaotic, as when this is combined with the varying number of bounces, it can be very hard to predict where the grenade will go. However, to help with aiming, the launcher will aim as if the grenade wasn't influenced by gravity as much, and as such, it will effectively aim at a position between the launcher and the target, which allows space for the grenade to reach the target after it has bounced.
The weapon will alternate which barrel is fired from, much like the GSO Cosmonaut SAP Cab's two lasers work. The grenade will be launched at a speed similar to the GSO 8-Barrel Fixed Mini Mortar. When the grenade bounces, to prevent the remaining bounces from being reduced multiple times in a bumpy bounce, there will be a delay somewhere between 50 and 200 milliseconds (this wouldn't be randomly selected, it would be a fixed value across all grenades), within which the grenade can freely bounce without decrementing the remaining bounce value. This will also help with the fact the grenade is mostly cylindrical, and therefore will almost always collide with an object at least twice.
The turret's pitch is limited to 15° downward, and 30° upward, and it can rotate freely on the vertical axis. The grenade's explosion radius would be about 3/4 that of the GSO Megaton Cannon, and the damage would be about 2-3 times that of the GSO 3-Pound Cannon. Remember that the weapon will still fall victim to the unpredictable bouncing that are the unique trait of the weapon, so if it seems quite powerful, there is still the problem of actually detonating near the target.

In short, I think this weapon fairly fits into the gap between the Grade 3 GSO 8-Barrel Fixed Mini Mortar, and the Grade 5 GSO Megaton Cannon, and I believe that it would also fit with GSO quite well, as it is somewhat unpredictable, yet it does get the job done.

EDIT: I have attached the model and material files here. I don't know for sure if the bones have been saved, but if they have, you can see how it rotates.

EDIT 2: Due to a particular response, I have changed this so that the grenade will detonate on contact with an enemy regardless of the number of bounces.
 

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JimmyBlether

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#3
I find it odd that GSO Grade 4 is the only grade of any corporation to not add any weapons at all (excluding the Special Corporation, but this one makes sense), so I decided I'd make one myself.
You can view it on Sketchfab: HERE
View attachment 18149
This is the GSO Bounder Grenade Launcher. It fires bouncing grenades which will bounce between 1-3 times, before detonating on the next collision. The number of bounces is determined upon the grenade projectile being instantiated, where the object selects a random number between 1-16 (inclusive) and it will only bounce once if the number is 1-12, twice for 13-15, and three times for 16. Until the grenade runs out of bounces, it will not detonate, even on contact with an enemy tech, terrain, or anything else; It will only detonate on collision with an object after it has no remaining bounces. This means that the weapon can easily be quite chaotic, as when this is combined with the varying number of bounces, it can be very hard to predict where the grenade will go. However, to help with aiming, the launcher will aim as if the grenade wasn't influenced by gravity as much, and as such, it will effectively aim at a position between the launcher and the target, which allows space for the grenade to reach the target after it has bounced.
The weapon will alternate which barrel is fired from, much like the GSO Cosmonaut SAP Cab's two lasers work. The grenade will be launched at a speed similar to the GSO 8-Barrel Fixed Mini Mortar. When the grenade bounces, to prevent the remaining bounces from being reduced multiple times in a bumpy bounce, there will be a delay somewhere between 50 and 200 milliseconds (this wouldn't be randomly selected, it would be a fixed value across all grenades), within which the grenade can freely bounce without decrementing the remaining bounce value. This will also help with the fact the grenade is mostly cylindrical, and therefore will almost always collide with an object at least twice.
The turret's pitch is limited to 15° downward, and 30° upward, and it can rotate freely on the vertical axis. The grenade's explosion radius would be about 3/4 that of the GSO Megaton Cannon, and the damage would be about 2-3 times that of the GSO 3-Pound Cannon. Remember that the weapon will still fall victim to the unpredictable bouncing that are the unique trait of the weapon, so if it seems quite powerful, there is still the problem of actually detonating near the target.

In short, I think this weapon fairly fits into the gap between the Grade 3 GSO 8-Barrel Fixed Mini Mortar, and the Grade 5 GSO Megaton Cannon, and I believe that it would also fit with GSO quite well, as it is somewhat unpredictable, yet it does get the job done.
Great job! I like it! Good prototype art!
 
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Lord Zarnox

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#4
Great job! I like it! Good prototype art!
Thanks. I was originally going to have it be able to pitch up to 45°, but then it would clip through the bounding box too much. At 30°, there's about 1/20 of a block poking out, so I figured that would be fair enough.
 
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Lord Zarnox

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#5
@zanzistar (Will any of you respond?)Do you think you guys could show this concept in the ComCore stream? Also, what do you think of the idea?

EDIT: I submitted this idea partly in yesterday's ComCore, and I noticed someone mentioned Sketchfab in the chat log...
 
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Lord Zarnox

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#7
If you submit it to the CC thread, with a much shorter summary explanation, I think they might. It's not all techs and saves; they're happy to show videos, for example (paerhaps happier, even, because less can go wrong).:)
Would you mind trying to summarise it for me. It is almost 10PM here, and I doubt I'd remember to do it tomorrow.
 

Lord Zarnox

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#9
@Jamie Any thoughts? Also if you did read this, please at least say something, so I at least know that you have acknowledged this thread's existence.
 

Bgrmystr2

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#10
@Lord Zarnox I'm going to step into this ring with an obviously unpopular opinion.

I would not use this weapon myself. Ever.
It's chaotic, sure, but it's way too unpredictable. The fact that the grenades do not actually explode on contact with enemy before the last bounce is the very thing that kills it for me.

I'm all for bouncing grenades, though they've never been great imo. Have any of you played Borderlands 2? Ever used the Bouncing Betty? or the legendary grenades that work similarly? I have. While interesting, they're not useful unless you toss a bunch of 'em inside a small room with barely any doors then get the hell outta dodge. Especially if they explode into several grenades at the end. Terratech has no small rooms.

This weapon will be highly ineffective. Grenades will bounce in every which possible direction, even back towards your tech. It may not damage your own tech if friendly fire is off, but realistically it would more than likely destroy you before it destroys the very enemy you tried to design it for. There's no guarantee that it will even strike the enemy at all, and at that point, why would you even use it?

If it absolutely has to be a bouncing grenade, it's imperative that the grenades explode on contact with the enemy. No matter how many or how few bounces it took. If it does not, they will just bounce off the enemy as well and explode nearby, leaving them untouched while they're able to easily fire upon you.


Also if you did read this, please at least say something, so I at least know that you have acknowledged this thread's existence.
The devs go out of their way to read every single thread on the forum, some of them do it even moreso than they're supposed to. It's a very important part of their job and there have been many times in the past where they would mention threads they haven't posted in specifically either on the stream or in other threads. They definitely do read everything and don't always have time to spend several minutes to perhaps an hour typing up a reply. The most important thing about the forums is to give them information, not the other way around.

I can totally understand that while a lack of presence from the devs does look like they do not read or notice the forums, but after being here for two years, I can safely say this is not like those games. The devs here do read, do care, and are much more willing than many other game devs to stick their neck out into the chaos that is the fanbase to hear what people have to say.

Ye of little faith. ;)
 
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Lord Zarnox

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#11
If it absolutely has to be a bouncing grenade, it's imperative that the grenades explode on contact with the enemy. No matter how many or how few bounces it took. If it does not, they will just bounce off the enemy as well and explode nearby, leaving them untouched while they're able to easily fire upon you.
Yes, that probably would be a good change to my concept for the grenade launcher.
This weapon will be highly ineffective. Grenades will bounce in every which possible direction, even back towards your tech. It may not damage your own tech if friendly fire is off, but realistically it would more than likely destroy you before it destroys the very enemy you tried to design it for. There's no guarantee that it will even strike the enemy at all, and at that point, why would you even use it?
As for this however, when you add movement to either the player's tech, or an enemies, almost all weapons will miss the majority of the time, the only exceptions being melee weapons, and homing weapons. Yes, the grenades are obviously even less likely to hit that the other weapons, but your argument does sort of go against most of the weapons in the game. Then there's the fact that the homing weapons, the main ones that counteract that issue, tend to be despised for being too effective.
The devs go out of their way to read every single thread on the forum, some of them do it even moreso than they're supposed to. It's a very important part of their job and there have been many times in the past where they would mention threads they haven't posted in specifically either on the stream or in other threads. They definitely do read everything and don't always have time to spend several minutes to perhaps an hour typing up a reply. The most important thing about the forums is to give them information, not the other way around.

I can totally understand that while a lack of presence from the devs does look like they do not read or notice the forums, but after being here for two years, I can safely say this is not like those games. The devs here do read, do care, and are much more willing than many other game devs to stick their neck out into the chaos that is the fanbase to hear what people have to say.
As for this, I had submitted some information about the weapon to the most recent ComCore, in red text, and in the stream, after someone mentioned Sketchfab, they seemed to have no idea what they were talking about. Yes, I know it is perfectly possible that they might have just skipped over that detail, but when combined first with my long wait to get a UESO banner, and after getting that, having to now wait for my IFTTES banner, after replying to @saiwun with the details that he requested, it just seems to be taking a long time.

I feel like I must state that I do actually completely understand that they have a lot on their hands, but it is also hard to shake the feeling that it hasn't been noticed, even if I know this probably isn't the case.
 
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Bgrmystr2

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#12
Pre-apologies for Wall Of Text. I didn't expect the topic to have this much to think about. :rolleyes:
Also.. 5000 character limit. :confused:

>As for this however, when you add movement to either the player's tech, or an enemies, almost all weapons will miss the majority of the time, the only exceptions being melee weapons, and homing weapons.
> Then there's the fact that the homing weapons, the main ones that counteract that issue, tend to be despised for being too effective.
>Your argument does sort of go against most of the weapons in the game.
Fair points, though I think generally misdirected. Also, not entirely accurate.

First and foremost : Most weapons miss because their aiming code shoots where the enemy IS, not where the enemy is GOING.

Enemies in the game circle around you and try to attack you from the rear. That's part of their code. The AI is only coded to attack the rear of the tech as that's generally where everyone would expect it to be the weakest. This is not always the case, but it stands to reason that moving to where you believe the enemy to be the weakest is important.

I would argue that most weapons can become more effective by rotating your tech in reverse in such a way that you end up facing the weapon barrels where the enemy is going before the built-in targeting can rotate your weapons to face where the enemy currently is. It counteracts the aiming problems. Your grenade launcher would be no different than anything else. It would also be affected by the very same aiming code, requiring you to aim ahead of the enemy by rotating your tech. It's something the player has to do and I do it quite often, but is also something the player should not have to do for the most part. Forward-targeting weapons like the hawkeye railgun are expected to shoot exactly where the tech is facing, and the player has to account for aiming, and this is by design. You can create techs that take advantage of this.

Your grenades are not guaranteed to strike the enemy and that is fundamentally different from the aiming problem stated above and compounds more problems on top of it. The weapon does not have any way to counteract the forced bounce before detonation. I would be forced to take a certain distance from an enemy and hope the pseudo-RNG of the weapon chooses more single bounces than multi-bounces. It would then require a tactical knowledge of the current area in such a way that I could make sure the grenades would theoretically bounce off the ground and into the enemy. This is fine if the enemy was coming straight at me, but like I stated above, that will generally not be the case.

What happens when there's more than one enemy? What do you do then? Most AI enemies would close the gap your weapon would need for it's maximum effectiveness before the battle really begins to get heated. How would your weapon cope with enemies that are right on top of you or hitting you with melee weapons? It would be useful for suppressing or discouraging a much larger foe from coming close, perhaps even a human opponent who would rather not drive into a cloud of explosions, but that would not work for a majority of the enemy population.
 

Bgrmystr2

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#13
The lack of taking movement into account is what makes most weapons inefficient by default and tracking weapons like missiles extremely effective. Missiles, specifically :
>Can target enemies farther than any other weapon,
>Will target an enemy based on where the missile is in the air, not where the missile was launched from,
>And change the target coordinates constantly as it homes into the enemy.

The GSO Fixed Mini-Mortar has a similar function with it's payload. They track just like the missiles do, though they travel in an arc instead of flying straight through the sky so while not quite as effective, the shells end up looking obscenely wonky when they randomly change arcs mid-air so close to the ground.

Missiles will cease to be seen as "too effective" once weapons are properly smart-targeted to where the enemy is going. It will change the field dramatically and increase the danger that AIs impose. It's something I personally cannot wait to see implemented.

I feel like I must state that I do actually completely understand that they have a lot on their hands, but it is also hard to shake the feeling that it hasn't been noticed, even if I know this probably isn't the case.
Yeah, some things are a coincidence, and some are accidental. It's good to remember that while they do try to read everything, their team is extremely small and there are so many of us. It's a given that people will notice something before the devs will.

It is rather unfortunate that for every moment someone spends reading the forums, they're not spending time focusing on coding, fixing bugs, redesigning blocks or concepts, or thinking of new ones, etc etc whatever they would be doing instead. Creation of the game itself will always be fundamental, but the community shapes the direction in a way many people underestimate. It remains fact that managing the community is just as important to the growth of TerraTech, as it would be for any game.
 

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#14
why would you even use it?
To "bounce" an attack behind two specifically shaped mountains?
Honestly this idea sounds awesome when combined with my installation monument idea to allow for the player to launch grenades down a ventilation shaft to remotely attack enemies- if it didn't explode randomly...
This weapon looks like was intentionally made as a chaotic weapon or new concept that hasn't been tapped before in the forums.

(The installation monument idea- a ridiculous idea, but sounds like it has tons of possible replay value if Payload Studios was a true triple-A game company with tons of cash to spend, which they are not in the current situation...)

Missiles will cease to be seen as "too effective" once weapons are properly smart-targeted to where the enemy is going. It will change the field dramatically and increase the danger that AIs impose. It's something I personally cannot wait to see implemented.
Good luck if it happens.
I have played a game called From The Depths that has tracking like that, and only the best designs survive in a firefight.(Or the player snipes them from orbit with a death ray)

It would probably be toggle able for newbie purposes and to retain the older aim gameplay.

It's good to remember that while they do try to read everything, their team is extremely small and there are so many of us. It's a given that people will notice something before the devs will.
Mods.
The ultimate in community contributing.
@Lord Zarnox, you have already created an awesome turret as shown above. With Steam hopefully getting community workshop support in the future, things look possible for mod support.

The final outcome rests on how commonly the mod is used by Terra Tech players.
The ultimate test to see how good a mod/idea actually is.
 

Lord Zarnox

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#15
@Bgrmystr2 Yes, they are very different to the current weapons in the game, and I have updated the main post with your feedback on the detonation mechanics, however, different isn't always bad. Admittedly, it isn't always good, either, but anyway, the unpredictability would add to the uniqueness of the weapon, and it would be able to fit a new niche in weapon roles. As @Legionite said:
This weapon looks like was intentionally made as a chaotic weapon or new concept that hasn't been tapped before in the forums.
This is a pretty accurate description of the weapon. This balances out the power of being able to hit enemy techs from any angle by rebounding the grenades, and the explosive potential it has if it hits the enemy repeatedly. It is designed to be powerful, but it is also designed to not be easily exploitable.

Also:
@Lord Zarnox, you have already created an awesome turret as shown above.
Thanks for that, good to see that you really like it.
 

Bgrmystr2

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#16
To "bounce" an attack behind two specifically shaped mountains?
Yes, the bouncing would be effective, should there be areas where the bounce could be used effectively to rebound around a corner or two. Inside structures, perhaps. Though, those are.. a pretty rare sight in Terratech, I would wager. :p

I'm of the opinion that we should see more of these structure types that create scenarios that are different from the generic sprawl of the outside world.
Good luck if it happens.
I have played a game called From The Depths that has tracking like that, and only the best designs survive in a firefight.(Or the player snipes them from orbit with a death ray)

It would probably be toggle able for newbie purposes and to retain the older aim gameplay.
While I have not played From The Depths, I can see why the best designs survive in a firefight, and it seems to me like most things are designed to be too accurate. From the trailers, I see missiles arcing in such a way that would generally not miss, and other weapons being nearly perfect aim and extremely fast bullet speed.

The difference is that it's not possible for TerraTech to become that bad. Weapons will never be that accurate or that hard to dodge because the bullet speed is quite slow. This is why aiming at the enemy misses. The bullets don't travel fast enough. Improving the weapons to shoot where the enemy is going is a good thing, not a bad thing. It will encourage the player to use real tactics to avoid getting hit. Taking cover behind hills, pulling serpentine maneuvers to avoid large volleys of Megaton cannons, or simply using sheer maneuverability to make sure the enemy bullets cannot hit you. These are very real tactics than can actually be used in TerraTech should the game be improved in such a way. Implementation of aiming ahead would naturally highly discourage the go-to builds of weapon pyramids that currently reign supreme. You'd think the opposite, but those pyramids would become sitting ducks and absorb fire from a target that can easily avoid the salvos from the pyramid itself.

Right now, without the ability to aim ahead, TerraTech encourages moving in one general direction and doesn't encourage mobility or tactical maneuvers. It encourages building pyramids or large techs of many weapons that move quite slowly. It only emphasizes the importance of weapons that function better than the others instead of emphasizing the importance of the differences in the weapons themselves.

Not switching all weapons to at least some form of aiming ahead would be a big mistake. Venture is one corporation that would become truely unique because of the change, as they are the fastest, most mobile, and most maneuverable techs on the field. Unfortunately for Venture, right now that movement superiority means nothing.

Also, I've just realized I've gone semi off-topic. :oops:
I have updated the main post with your feedback on the detonation mechanics
I hadn't noticed till now, if I wasn't typing, I've been running around doing everything else. Oops. :confused: Good to see that kind of change. The instant-explosion upon enemy contact will definitely make the weapon a viable choice for medium and close distances while the bouncing design will help give it a unique albeit unpredictable feature that allows players to bounce grenades off walls or perhaps even bouncing off blocks on the tech that shot them to create rainfall of bullets in certain directions. If implemented, you may see techs designed specifically to take advantage of that. :eek:
 

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#18
This is genius!
A humagous wall of text that took me 20 mins to read!
The idea is genius i think i requsted allso something like a sticky bomb launcher
Id like this in the game!
 
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