Current state of Multiplayer -- January 2018

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Sozin

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#42
Answers. Still a sandbox. Battle Royale is a different mode. Doesn't give you anything different in game. ALSO NOT A BATTLE ROYALE. More like a deathmatch. You respawn and there is no last man standing. You don't have to play multiplayer but in case you haven't noticed this whole thread is the community pressuring them for multiplayer
Since you apparently feel the need to shout:
I NEVER SAID TERRATECH WAS A BATTLE ROYALE STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUH DIMWIT.

Now that that business is over:
MP bares some similarities, namely the scavenging and somewhat deathmatchy focus. Respawn goes against true BR what with its LMS, but you could argue finding missiles is an automatic LMS simulator because you basically win.
I hesitate to call it TDM because afaik TDM doesn’t normally include a scavenging component.
Not sure what other categories there are. If you know what it is, please elaborate.

Regardless, the main thrust of my argument stands. MP community and SP community are mostly separate with some overlap. You can’t please both, so sacrifices need to be made, resulting in a substandard product for both groups.

Please, note that MP community != people who wanted Minecraft-style MP (like me). MP community is purely those who will buy the game for the TDM.

I am, quite obviously, in the SP camp. I already see a substandard product in the SP category (lack of progress has a funny thing to do that). Can’t comment on MP, but progress seems to be slow as well. At this rate, by the release date, the finished product will not be that great at all. If I’m being kind, i’d it “unpolished”. If I’m being realistic, I’d call it “unfinished.” That is not a reputation you want (cough no mans sky cough).

This kind of strategy is normally something AAA studios try, and even then rarely, with little hope of success. An indie game studio likely having funding problems? (It’s an indie game studio, and it just increased its employee count) Yikes.

I bought TT because I saw it as a sandbox game with potential, and the unspoken agreement that by paying for early access to the game, I’ll be able to help it become a better sandbox game. Indie game studios need funds, after all. Proceeding to abandon a half-baked sandbox game in favor of multiplayer TDM hysteria is a breach of metaphorical contract. It’s equivalent to corporations putting disclaimers in size 2 font and saying “oh it’s not my fault you can’t read size 2 font”. Legally, no it’s not, but you can be damn sure I’ll never buy another product from that corporation again.
 
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Khaine

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#43
The reason? Because if you didn't plan for a game to be multiplayer from the start, editing it to make it multiplayer is extremely difficult: to the point that you may as well tear down the entire game engine and rebuild it from scratch (Assuming you're optimizing as you go. If you're not then you have no business being a game studio).
I'm assuming this game actually was intended to be multiplayer from the start, but the definition of multiplayer is a bit vague. Can you interact with other players in a limited, arena like fashion? Why certainly, there are multiple game modes where you can shoot other players. Can you play campaign co-op? PVP? Can you sit in someone else's R&D area? No.

What I would *like* is a minecraft like game, where we all play in the same server. This is the age of multiplayer after all, even fallout has jumped on the bandwagon.

And, in theory, that should be possible. Multiplayer Arena matches are being run off a player's computer, so*some* code exists for multiple player to co-habit the same area. As I recall, the issue was what happens when each of those players decides to go off to another area. Perhaps that's the aquiles heel you were mentioning about the game not being made for multiplayer from scratch, that coding that would require so much recoding that they might as well start from scratch.

(outta time, I'll address the rest later)
 

DrShadox

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#44
To be honest i don't realy like PvP (except on some game) , and the only MP thing i would like to see in TT is co-op campaign.

But glad to know the actual MP thingy seem work well for now.
 

Lost Ninja

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#45
I seem to recall that another Unity Engine game that I enjoyed quite a bit had issues moving from a Single Player game to a Multiplayer Game (Space Engineers), I wonder how much of the apparent difficulty is to do with the underlying engine? I mean I don't know, I know what Unity is and I looked briefly at the development environment and I've pottered around the Unity website but serious coder I am not so I could be misunderstanding the issues.

Hopefully why-ever this particular type of MP was added first the fact that someone is working on it is a sign that true co-operative MP will come eventually.
 

SF Squiggy

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#46
Going along with sumo, why not a multiplayer gauntlet? We have ghost racing, but what if u could race against other people? Another kind of off-topic question; what ever happened to AI harvesting? I know that the AI stuff is being looked at, but I think the AI harvesting should definitely come back if possible.
 

Sozin

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#47
I'm assuming this game actually was intended to be multiplayer from the start, but the definition of multiplayer is a bit vague. Can you interact with other players in a limited, arena like fashion? Why certainly, there are multiple game modes where you can shoot other players. Can you play campaign co-op? PVP? Can you sit in someone else's R&D area? No.

What I would *like* is a minecraft like game, where we all play in the same server. This is the age of multiplayer after all, even fallout has jumped on the bandwagon.

And, in theory, that should be possible. Multiplayer Arena matches are being run off a player's computer, so*some* code exists for multiple player to co-habit the same area. As I recall, the issue was what happens when each of those players decides to go off to another area. Perhaps that's the aquiles heel you were mentioning about the game not being made for multiplayer from scratch, that coding that would require so much recoding that they might as well start from scratch.

(outta time, I'll address the rest later)
Exactly my point.

Example: Avorion. Avorion is built as a multiplayer game. Single player is just a form of multiplayer where you happen to be the only one active on the server you’re hosting on your own computer, and which others can’t connect to. AFAIK Starmade works in a similar manner. Minecraft too for that matter.

Given my suspicions about how TT runs, it was designed as a single player sandbox first and foremost, with all of the implicit simplifications and optimization’s that come with it. Owned techs, and editing privileges make multiplayer a more complicated undertaking than normal already.
To add in proper co-op multiplayer would be such a huge undertaking that I’m not even sure it’s possible. Granted, I’d like it, but I’d also like to win the lottery.
 

Zed

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#48
Exactly my point.

Example: Avorion. Avorion is built as a multiplayer game. Single player is just a form of multiplayer where you happen to be the only one active on the server you’re hosting on your own computer, and which others can’t connect to. AFAIK Starmade works in a similar manner. Minecraft too for that matter.

Given my suspicions about how TT runs, it was designed as a single player sandbox first and foremost, with all of the implicit simplifications and optimization’s that come with it. Owned techs, and editing privileges make multiplayer a more complicated undertaking than normal already.
To add in proper co-op multiplayer would be such a huge undertaking that I’m not even sure it’s possible. Granted, I’d like it, but I’d also like to win the lottery.
It seems also worth noting at this juncture that Avorion / Starmade / Minecraft are all Java Based Games and have nothing to do with Unity.

Alas I agree with @Sozin regarding multiplayer coop is probably too large of a rework to be considered cost effective for TerraTech given its current release trajectory with 1.0 planned within the remaining 8 weeks of "Summer 2018"
 
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Lyons

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#49
I did not realize TerraTech was designed as a game to appeal to the FortNite community. I did not realize it was supposed to be some sort of battle royale game.
I am sorry is this your twin?
 

Sozin

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#50
Going along with sumo, why not a multiplayer gauntlet? We have ghost racing, but what if u could race against other people? Another kind of off-topic question; what ever happened to AI harvesting? I know that the AI stuff is being looked at, but I think the AI harvesting should definitely come back if possible.
This is such a good idea why can’t I remember anybody suggesting this before?
Granted, my memory is extremely bad, but I think I’d remember hearing about something like this.
Multiplayer Gauntlet/Sumo maintains the niche that prefer Gauntlet/Sumo, while expanding upon it with no real drawbacks. The more the merrier.
It also adds in a layer of competition between friends, so that draws in some competition, and pride, I guess.
It should also be relatively simple to add in. Gauntlet and Sumo both take place in predetermined locations, so few of the issues with coop multiplayer are there.

As to AI: the vibe I’ve been getting from the devs is “yeah this is all we’ve got, and you’re not getting anything else until after 1.0 is released”
Translation: never

I should note that good pathfinding on unknown terrain (procedural generation is a thing here) is a military-level problem. I’m certain that DARPA has been throwing billions of dollars at it for over a decade now.
 
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Sozin

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#51
It seems also worth noting at this juncture that Avorion / Starmade / Minecraft are all Java Based Games and have nothing to do with Unity.
I thought Unity was more of a framework, and you could flat out replace some of the provided function prototypes if you wanted to. In that case, the difference would be negligible.
If it’s an actual game engine *that cannot be expanded upon* (use Unity’s provided formulae or don’t include that function) then yeah there might be problems.

Also I was sure Avorion ran on a cpp backend with most of its functions being handled by lua scripts. Haven’t really had cause to check because performance is fantastic.
 

Lyons

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#52
I did not realize TerraTech was designed as a game to appeal to the FortNite community. I did not realize it was supposed to be some sort of battle royale game.
I NEVER SAID TERRATECH WAS A BATTLE ROYALE STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUH DIMWIT.
These are contradictory statements. I believe you did say that. So aren't you the dimwit?
 

Lost Ninja

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#53
I should note that good pathfinding on unknown terrain (procedural generation is a thing here) is a military-level problem. I’m certain that DARPA has been throwing billions of dollars at it for over a decade now.
While I'd never say that any good AI in a game is easy to create, Path-finding for a Robot/Drone/etc in the real world with the implied need to interpret correctly where you are and how to get where you're going is a whole different thing than path-finding in a game where not only is the terrain essentially available to the AI through the program within which it runs but the world (especially TT) is extremely simple in comparison to the real world.
 

Sozin

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#54
While I'd never say that any good AI in a game is easy to create, Path-finding for a Robot/Drone/etc in the real world with the implied need to interpret correctly where you are and how to get where you're going is a whole different thing than path-finding in a game where not only is the terrain essentially available to the AI through the program within which it runs but the world (especially TT) is extremely simple in comparison to the real world.
Hm. I’d argue it’s closer to said DARPA problem in terms of complexity not because of terrain interpretation, but because of the problem of movement itself.

We’re dealing with techs here, each with different turning radii, speed, inertia (can and will cause sliding), variable obstructions (trees growing, resources/blocks on the ground), ground clearance (can you actually go up/over that hill), and destructible obstacles.

An acceptable solution might not be *that* difficult (can probably ignore resource chunks most of the time), but a good solution? Definitely DARPA level.

Do note that quality includes performance. A solution may be perfect, but if it takes a minute to arrive at the path, it’s useless.
 

Sozin

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#56
Now you did so I think you owe me an apology
Okay you’re definitely trolling now. My response? I’ll continue responding no matter how inane your response.

Edit: okay some things even I refuse to touch
 

MrTwister

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#57
While I'd never say that any good AI in a game is easy to create, Path-finding for a Robot/Drone/etc in the real world with the implied need to interpret correctly where you are and how to get where you're going is a whole different thing than path-finding in a game where not only is the terrain essentially available to the AI through the program within which it runs but the world (especially TT) is extremely simple in comparison to the real world.
There are 1997 games that have excellent pathfinding on a massive scale for gigantic groups of units in full-3d environments (Total Annihilation). However I also have to add that Chris Taylor of Cavedog/Gas Powered Games/Wargaming is one of the most experienced and highly skilled developers in the industry and that his games always used proprietary engines developed in-house and the way they fill and operate are unlike anyone else's.

In fact Total Annihilation is still played and developed by the active community today - 20 years later and that game supports groups as large as 6000-8000 3d units moving shooting concurrently without any trouble, just need any relatively modern CPU.

Also, that 20-year old game simulates physics like gravity for all units at the same time.
 

Lyons

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#58
Okay you’re definitely trolling now. My response? I’ll continue responding no matter how inane your response.

Edit: okay some things even I refuse to touch
I understood at the very beginning that you were being sarcastic but I love seeing how different people react to these types of scenarios. I even convinced a girl that I had multiple personality disorder
 

Sozin

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#60
There are 1997 games that have excellent pathfinding on a massive scale for gigantic groups of units in full-3d environments (Total Annihilation). However I also have to add that Chris Taylor of Cavedog/Gas Powered Games/Wargaming is one of the most experienced and highly skilled developers in the industry and that his games always used proprietary engines developed in-house and the way they fill and operate are unlike anyone else's.

In fact Total Annihilation is still played and developed by the active community today - 20 years later and that game supports groups as large as 6000-8000 3d units moving shooting concurrently without any trouble, just need any relatively modern CPU.

Also, that 20-year old game simulates physics like gravity for all units at the same time.
I remember reading an interesting paper about I think it was total annihilation or supreme commander. It basically was about some sort of wave motion algorithm that was present in the game that allowed for multiple armies to cross paths and cross chokepoints without breaking formation (too much). idk the details but it definitely mentioned flow or something. Very good read.
 
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