Big HE wheels {reviewing large wheel speeds}

Saelem Black

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#2
Yes, 100% agree. There's no reason big daddy wheels need to be clamped at 45 mph. They need to be 60 mph, really, and have their turning radius made tighter.

In fact, all the HE wheels could use a buff. The bike wheels need much higher top speed also.
 

ZeroGravitas

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#4
Fair points, I'll give it a look.

Well, the large Venture wheel's top speeds were all brought *down* fairly recently. e.g. Monsters lost ~10mph (and stop horribly immediately) and the Springers where a lot slower. So I don't know about buffing the HE wheel's speed by all that much, in this context.
Side note 1: I also noticed that a lot of wheels seem to have been nerfed for top speed. Is this deliberate? Or maybe some accident of physic changes? (Like the little Hawkeye tech with Venture wheels was down to 60mph, from 80mph in the previous patch.)

Certainly the ability of all the medium to large Hawkeye wheels to turn a tech (of any weight) is still a big problem, though:
(3) Also - Hawkeye Big Daddy wheels are entirely incapable of turning while driving forwards. Have they just got too much grip? Is there some way that the the driving system can known to give the wheels on the inside of the turn just a little bit of juice, to lubricate that movement...?
Harking back to this bug thread on wheel turning, yet again: https://forum.terratechgame.com/ind...nt-wheels-turning-wrong-way.17842/post-132393
 
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zanzistar

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#5
Hey,

I've done a review of the wheel speeds. The general order should be, Venture have the fastest wheels, then GSO, then Hawkeye and then GeoCorp. I've left Better Future out because they're less about wheels and more about hovering.

Looking at each of the Hawkeye wheels, I've made notes of their name, dimensions, speed and then compared to to the speeds of wheels from other corporations that are roughly the same size:

Hawkeye Bike Wheels
2x1x1
54 mph (Ven 79, GSO 51)

Hawkeye Tread Wheel
2x2x1
48 mph (GC 35, GSO 65, Ven 85)

Hawkeye Garrison Wheel
2x2x1
48 mph (GC 35, GSO 65, Ven 85)

Hawkeye PX Small Track
3x2x1
37 mph (GSO 41, VEN 51)

Hawkeye Warhorse Wheel
3x3x2
47 mph (GC 31, GSO 65, Ven 120)

Hawkeye M4 Medium Track
4x2x1
52 mph (GC 35, Ven 62)

Hawkeye Big Daddy
4x4x2
48 mph (GC 41, Ven 65)

Hawkeye TT12 Big Track
6x3x2
62 mph (GC 45, Ven 60)

Judging by these results, the only outliers (based on the above-stated expectations for corporation differences) are the Hawkeye Bike Wheels, which should be around 65 mph (so I've just given them a buff) and the Hawkeye TT12 Big Track, which should probably be a bit slower, but I'll leave that alone for now. Most of the Hawkeye Wheels are balanced at the right speed considering the extra armour the offer over GSO and Venture.

I know what you're asking for is for the top end wheels to get a bit faster overall which is a fair request, so I'll bump the speeds of the Hawkeye Warhorse and Big Daddy Wheels up a bit and I'll also increase the speeds of the Venture, GSO and GeoCorp wheels that are a similar size in step with them.
 

zanzistar

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#6
Increased the top speed of several wheels.

These wheels have been given +10 mph:
  • Hawkeye Bike Wheels (straight and angled)
  • Hawkeye Workhorse Wheel
  • GeoCorp Workaday Wheel
  • GeoCorp Jaws Wheel
  • GSO Muddy Dog Wheel

These wheels have been given +20 mph:
  • Hawkeye Big Daddy Wheel
  • GeoCorp Big-Boy Wheel
  • Venture Monster Truck Wheel
  • Venture Titan Truck Wheel
 

reaperx1

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#7
Increased the top speed of several wheels.

These wheels have been given +10 mph:
  • Hawkeye Bike Wheels (straight and angled)
  • Hawkeye Workhorse Wheel
  • GeoCorp Workaday Wheel
  • GeoCorp Jaws Wheel
  • GSO Muddy Dog Wheel

These wheels have been given +20 mph:
  • Hawkeye Big Daddy Wheel
  • GeoCorp Big-Boy Wheel
  • Venture Monster Truck Wheel
  • Venture Titan Truck Wheel
Simply awesome! Have a good one [8D)
 

Dynamix

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#8
Increased the top speed of several wheels.

These wheels have been given +10 mph:
  • Hawkeye Bike Wheels (straight and angled)
  • Hawkeye Workhorse Wheel
  • GeoCorp Workaday Wheel
  • GeoCorp Jaws Wheel
  • GSO Muddy Dog Wheel

These wheels have been given +20 mph:
  • Hawkeye Big Daddy Wheel
  • GeoCorp Big-Boy Wheel
  • Venture Monster Truck Wheel
  • Venture Titan Truck Wheel
I think you weant Warhorse wheels for Hawkeye ;)
 

Saelem Black

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#9
@zanzistar , it's very interesting to see the wheel values laid out like that. I hadn't seen them all next to each other. Made me start thinking more carefully about why I felt they needed a buff.

The heart of my original concern was that, other than purely cosmetic reasons, there's never a reason to use hawkeye wheels in-game. The higher armor is not enough of an advantage, given that HE doesn't have an X-large wheel (especially considering the Titan and the Behemoth are both faster than the big daddy). If a builder wants to build a big HE tech, the Big Daddy ends up competing with the X-large wheels from other corps. With the introduction of BF, bike wheels where given some love (which they needed), but it pushed hawkeye even further down the "I'm-never-going-to-use-these" list. Given BF's very good speed, the fact that their size categories exactly overlaps with HE, and they have amazing clearance, BF wheels pretty much always win out versus HE.

I suppose in other words, every other corp has a role for its wheels, venture being fast through every size, GC able to carry the most weight, BF excelling at bikes, speed, and ground clearance for small and medium techs. GSO is the starter corp so everyone uses those wheels at some point. But what about hawkeye? Extra armor just isn't enough of a benefit considering the power of cruises and cannons.

I'm not really sure what the ultimate solution is here. The speed buff will certainly mix up the meta, and the new HE tracks are a HUUUGE step in the right direction, since they kinda function like an x-large wheel. I'm interested to see where everything falls!

Also, thanks for your responsiveness.
 

ZeroGravitas

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#10
Increased the top speed of several wheels.
Oh... This is going to be another one of those things that we won't see until the next round of unstables, then (e.g. 1.3.0.1 or later)? I did a dumb-dumb and checked 1.2 verses 1.2.0.8 for comparison...:

Cropper2019-07-18-06-08-32-2770404.jpg

i.e. they're all unchanged, of course. I'd seen @mozuo speculating on Twitter about wheels (or some other change) boosting his tech's climbing ability: tweet. Guess I jumped to the wrong conclusion...

Anyway, here's a recording of my testing in 1.2, for future reference. I used no weight at all, to find pure speed ceiling, but you'll always have significant weight, in practice, and that will lower effective top speed. So I don't know what would be a more reasonable test...:


I know what you're asking for is for the top end wheels to get a bit faster overall
I think that's only one aspect of it. The bigger problem with the HE wheels is that they still can't turn - going back to this issue reported in the wheel turning bug thread. In some cases, not turning at all, even on light techs. I don't imagine that raising the speed ceiling will help this kind of thing. Not unless it's also adding a lot of extra torque...? There's just too much lateral grip getting in the way.

And I see that tweaks to the new HE tracks have made them far worse in this respect too, since the last unstable (or so). Instead of sliding, they stick and jerk more, turning more slowly and more erratically (on the techs I built with them). Alsmost breaking some of the tech I submitted last week.



Both saves from videos attached for reference.


These wheels have been given +20 mph: GeoCorp Big-Boy Wheel
This actually sounds a little scary (perhaps unreasonable?), with respect to the many campaign enemy techs using these mid-big old wheels, in conjunction with a load of megatons, etc - if it makes them all that much faster...:eek:

And the HE bike wheels felt about right, compared to the slow garrisons and treads. I wonder if boosting their speed is going to cause a lot of legacy techs to become less stable and topple over... And make HE even more OP in MP deathmatch (not that'd I'd use that as a consideration, myself).
 

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Saelem Black

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#11
Oh... This is going to be another one of those things that we won't see until the next round of unstables, then (e.g. 1.3.0.1 or later)? I did a dumb-dumb and checked 1.2 verses 1.2.0.8 for comparison...:
Jesus, ZG, give him more than *literally* one day. 1.2.0.8 just looks like a hotfix.

Considering the HE wheels and tracks, this looks exactly like a classic differential problem, right out of car design. The differential allows wheels on the same axle to spin proportionally faster/slower than the other wheel specifically to make turning easier. Without it, while turning, you'll always be dragging at least one wheel faster than it's spinning, forcing it to slide across the ground. Without a differential, very grippy wheels/treads will struggle to turn because one side can't turn faster than the other because they're gripping the ground firmly. I wonder if TT has differential motion accounted for in the wheel code?

I'm also curious about how venture wheels don't seem to struggle with this. What's the difference between the venture monster truck wheels and the big daddy in terms of grip/turning radius, etc? I'm also wondering if big daddy's are animation-limited on turn radius.

Also, ZG, I get your point about faster enemy techs. Hmmm. Let's just hope it's only the relatively rare HE enemies which are effected.

As for the bike wheels, I disagree strongly. I know there's a library of legacy techs, but they shouldn't be an anchor to stop balance changes. HE bikes are embarrassingly slow compared to BF/venture. You never see them without boosters, which is symptomatic of the lack of the wheels' top speed.
 

ZeroGravitas

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#12
The differential allows wheels on the same axle to spin proportionally faster/slower than the other wheel specifically to make turning easier.
I don't know if there's a component of the issue that's related to grib in the direction of travel of the wheels. But the turn sticking issue also applies when a tech is in turning-on-the-spot mode, with all its wheels angled such that they are travelling the same distance. So that's why I say it's probably increased sideways friction that's the main problem. You can definitely tell that the new tracks are slipping around less too - no fun drifting any more.:(

I'm also curious about how venture wheels don't seem to struggle with this.
Generally Venture wheels have less grip. And more speed - don't know if this necessarily translates to more torque too...

I know there's a library of legacy techs, but they shouldn't be an anchor to stop balance changes.
Oh, for sure (it's not stopped rebalancing in the past) - just another thought. They just *feel* fast enough to me. And for the same tire radius as, say the tiny Venture Zoomers they certainly shouldn't be that fast (73mph) given Venture is a racing/stunt corp and HE gear is supposed to be more heavy duty and robust. But maybe we should compare to the Venture Globe Trotters (not sure if any/much faster). And I imagine a mere 10mph buff, going from 56mph up to 66mph will probably feel OK, still, we'll see if that causes issues, I guess.
 

Zorgomol

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#13
I wonder if TT has differential motion accounted for in the wheel code?
I would say it changes wheel-by-wheel basis. However I don't think there are several different versions of wheel code around any more after the wheel rewrite some time ago, I'd guess this is more of an issue about other wheel parameters that may not have been adjusted accordingly w.r.t. max speed.

And I second the note that +20 to Big-Boy is very scary and also makes it the fastest GC wheel by a fair margin.
 
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Captain Load

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#14
So its not my imagination that the GC Bib Boy utterly dominates the same way the Workaday once did. I've tried to get away from using them exclusively and I always end up coming back. Even the new large HE tracks can't compare because they don't turn worth a darn and it seems like they don't climb as well, either. I vote against Big Boys getting a speed boost..I feel like their just about right.
 
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Commander 86

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#15
I'm with the captain on this one.
Nobody here asked for faster GeoCorp wheels. Boosting any of their wheels by 20 mph is extreme. If you can't resist the urge to tweak them, then a modest 5 mph increase would be more sensible.

Making the GeoCorp Big-Boy so much faster would kind of defeat the purpose of buffing the Hawkeye Big Daddy. We want Hawkeye wheels to feel more distinct from GeoCorp wheels. Hawkeye wheels and treads should be designed to get an armored chassis up to combat speeds, while GeoCorp should continue doing what they do best -moving the heaviest loads at a slow-but-inexorable pace.
 
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zanzistar

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#16
I bumped the GC Big-Boy, the HE Big Daddy, the Ven Moster Truck and the Ven Titan Truck wheels by the same +20 mph to keep them in step with each other as I'm happy with the delta between each one in terms of mph, but the actual values for each one were just too slow.

I'd like you all to have a play with the new values when they arrive in an update and let me know what you think then.

Cool, I'll do a pass on the 'turn on the spot power' of the HE wheels. Yes, we have a concept of differentials, turn on the spot power and turning brakes in our model. Tank tracks behave in a very different way to wheels because they are set-up in a different way (they're a bit of a pain really).

Cheers!
Kris
 

ZeroGravitas

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#17
Ok, so these were updated in 1.3.1.1 and here's my retest figures:

Cropper2019-08-03-08-00-05-7768300.jpg

Marked in red I think are too fast (as we were saying above) and orange is borderline (maybe too fast). Retest video, here:


Of course those are all unloaded max speeds. So they will loose speed with realistically heavy techs and that's why the Muddy Dogs aren't necessarily too over powered - even though they are faster than the monster trucks, on paper, they slow down considerably on a modest weight tech (and have worst acceleration and turning).

Having said this, they still achieve about the same 53mph (on my mid-weight tech) as the Monsters and the Big Boys, too. These basic GC wheels being as good as the bulkier, more expensive, harder to come by sporty Venture wheels doesn't seem right. So I still think the Big Boys need toning back down by 5-10mph, probably. Although I've not played in campaign/creative, to see if I can get a feel for how common population enemies with them now feel...

The big HE wheels (which this thread was initially about) feel strong, now. Maybe too strong? Increasing their speed seems to have improved their on-the-spot turning capability a little too. But the mid sized HE wheels are of course still totally broken in this respect (and the new HE tracks are completely incapable of turning, on my previous enemy builds).

Curious to hear how other players feel their existing wheeled techs now handle after these changes...:)


Note: added "{reviewing large wheel speeds}" to thread title, for reference.
 
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Captain Load

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#18
Curious to hear how other players feel their existing wheeled techs now handle after these changes...:)
Big Boy are now uber and there is really no point in using anything else if you can fit them to your tech w/o blocking important weapons, collectors, etc. Their the only sensible choice for a mobile base or "Megaton Mountain". Using BB wheels my gigantic, self-sustaining battle refinery is as fast as a small Venture buggy sporting two tiny machine guns. Of course I can also build a floating skybike that doesn't use any power but I still can't figure out how to fly a plane.
 
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