[1.1.0.1] Feedback - Gyroscope force changes (Venture gyro nerfed too much)

ZeroGravitas

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#1
Following this change:
Reduced the hit points and corrective force power of the Venture All Axis Active Gyro.
...The Venture gyro is now about 1/4 it's former strength.:eek:

While the BF gyro remains the same (as Venture's was), the new GSO gyro is 4 times stronger (for the same size!) and the HE gyro is 4 times stronger than that (the same strength per unit volume as GSO's). These are my measuring setups, which all have the same effect of *just* lifting the weight off the ground, for illustrative purposes:




@zanzistar - I'd suggest that this change is way too drastic. (And a worst issue than when I complained of the hover-steers being buffed too much, for reference.)

I can't see any utility of making Venture's gyro so weak. Even for the smallest plane of which I con conceive (which formally had no gyro), a single one of these new gyros does almost nothing. You'd need at least 2. So I can't think of a reason to go below 1/2 the previous (this plane can still easily fly loops the loops with 2). Anyone else go any ideas for super-weak gyros?

ZG MicroPlane1 gryo.png


25% strength also makes pure Venture bikes pretty much unviable. Obviously this change would break this leaning-in bike (which just had 2 inside before) - it just sits on it's side without these additions:

ZG BikeLeansIn 1101.png


Obviously any significant nerf to the Venture gyro is going to break a *lot* of existing techs. Given that it was the only gyro in the main game, up until recently, a change like this will break most helicopters, regular hover techs, airships, bikes and many player (and AI) air-planes, novelty upright robot techs, etc.

This will be most hover enemies in the game's population, most of the techs that use them on the workshop, as well as stored locally. Looking through my workshop, there's about a dozen of my techs that will be significantly affected, many of which I'd class as 'broken'. Examples:
  • StockCar - submitted as an enemy in last week's ComCore would now tips over far too readily and doesn't right itself.
  • BigSuze - enemy, doesn't balance properly, staying tipped back or pushing too hard on the front wheels, unable to drive correctly.
  • Zoologist Quadcopter - in my previous and recent YouTube episodes, was perfectly balanced for restorative force, will now topple very easily and not level out.
  • Various other planes, VTOLS and bikes similarly effected. Plus both the hover-ships (from @QuackDuck and @GK vec) that I showed in my latest episode now topple, etc, etc.

I'm not saying that the venture gyro should stay locked in strength forever, but I'd be thinking more along the lines of making it 66%-75% of it's former strength (if changing it).

The GSO gyro is stupidly strong too. That has the opposite problem, that just one of them is massively too powerful for a modest sized (GSO) aircraft. (Was that meant to be a deliberate drawback?)


Oh and talking about gyros, what is the "Resistiveness" toggle on BF gyros supposed to do? (Anything, yet?) It's not on/off, like the fancy BF gyros. I wondered if it might be a realism switch, that added a processive reactive force perpendicular....? (Which would be horrible in practice, lol.)
 

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Falchoin

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#2
I’ll have to try it out, but the only reason I can think of for using very weak gyros is for use in fully weightless anti-grav techs. Strong active gyros tend to make them wobble due to overcompensation. So maybe these new Venture gyros would limit the need for passive gyros mixed with active in full AG techs?

I’ll have to test this theory out later.
 

Nooboid

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#3
I only have one venture gyro on my tracked hoverbug bike and it's fine. I haven't noticed anything too bad.
 
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Falchoin

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#4
For comparison, AG unit with one BF gyro:
Hummingbird.png

And same thing with a Venture gyro:
Hummingbird Ven.png

Honestly, aside from the wobble speed being slower on the Venture gyro version there is little to no difference. To total time spent wobbling is about the same, if not longer for the Venture version. It is interesting that it's mostly roll wobbling for both. Do gyros not affect roll as much as pitch?
 
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ZeroGravitas

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#5
Do gyros not affect roll as much as pitch?
I don't know, I doubt it. Maybe that tech has more inertia in the roll axis... Or the wing configuration gives better dampening on the pitch axis... (Shrug.)


I only have one venture gyro on my tracked hoverbug bike and it's fine. I haven't noticed anything too bad.
Have you got a snapshot? Did it actually rely much on gyro-stabilisation before-hand? :)
 
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ZeroGravitas

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#8
Here is the snap:
Oh right, it's a "Tron Mini" variant. Hah.:)

Yeah, on the ground it needs no gyro because the side protrusions stop it toppling. With that Hailfire Rifle on top, and no Ion drive, it's also better balanced for pitch than my original; if i use only a Venture gyro on my original design it nosedives pretty badly in flight and when driving.

Of course, the vertical hover-bug pairs give a lot of stability against roll, too. In fact, with the strange behaviour of the Ripsaw Tracks, they will sometimes self-right the tech when it has no gyro attached at all (unreliable, though):

No keyboard input after flipping it on its back.
 

zanzistar

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#9
Fair play, thanks for the feedback and showing your working.

I reduced it down because I wanted to offer a very light touch gyro for the low end and you can't use half a gyro. We all know that too many active gyros on a plane will start impeding your ability pitch and bank so I wanted to provide a very low-end one to correct slight wobbles but otherwise keep your controls the same.

For my test, I used a gyro on the back of the Lift Off plane in Creative. I was using the old setting for Venture Gyros, which is the same setting as the current BF Gyro, 50. You can feel the effect whilst using it, it will hold your plane level, but it also impedes your ability to roll. That's why I knocked the VEN one down to 25, I wanted to see what sort of carefully balanced uses people might have for it, but maybe it is too weak now.

Venture ones are currently set to 25 corrective force, BF is 50, GSO 100, HE 200 and GC is 400 currently.

I'm bumping them all so that VEN is 50, BF is bumped to 75 and GSO remains at 100. HE should bump to 300 ( staying as 4 x BF) and GC should go to 600 (8 x BF).

That change will be in the next update for you, let me know here what you think.
 

ZeroGravitas

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#10
Thanks for replying.:)
I was using the old setting for Venture Gyros, which is the same setting as the current BF Gyro, 50.
I'm a little confused by those numbers, given that I'm certain that you need 4 times as many Venture gyros for the same effect as 1, previously. Is there a calculation step between those numbers and the actual torque produced? That would mean that halving the value goes to 1.4 and doubling goes to 4 times...? e.g. ({Value}/50)^2

At any rate, I'll take another look in 1.1.0.2.:cool:
 

ZeroGravitas

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#11
HE should bump to 300 ( staying as 4 x BF) and GC should go to 600 (8 x BF).
Yeah, this isn't true. The numbers you're tweaking are not on a linear scale.

They're raised to a power at some point in the calculations, or something. So the HE gyro has ended up 8 10 times stronger than GSO's and GeoCorp's is 48 54 times stronger than GSO's (~216 times a Venture gyro)! *Very roughly.

2019-05-08 gyro torque comparison 1.jpg
Save file attached.

Cropper2019-05-08-09-46-54-8590577.jpg
[Edited to update slightly more accurate weight figures and add additional BF gyro types.]

I'm assuming that's not what was intended...? @zanzistar, @Matt?

Certainly not since these insane strengths for the bigger gyros gives them terrible rounding accuracy jitter/oscillation issues (again).


Anyway, the Venture gyro appears to back exactly where it was. Don't know if that's intended either? But I don't really want to complain, given that it fixes all the legacy techs...:)
 

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zanzistar

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#12
Boom! You're correct. Well done. Fixing now. The new values will aim for HE to be 4 x BF and for GC to be 8 x BF.

Edit: That's done now. I've tested it with the same Techs you were using @ZeroGravitas. Thanks for your feedback.
  • The VEN Gyro can now lift a GSO One Block with the test Tech
  • BF can lift 2
  • GSO can lift 3
  • HE can lift 8
  • GC can lift 16
That'll be in the next build.

Cheers!
 
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Rafs

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#15
I think there might be an intention with such design, although it is unclear for me.

The scaling for size & power should not be thought for planes only. What I mean is that, from Venture to BF to GSO the "soft scaling" design is ok, but for bigger blocks such as hawkeye and geocorp, the design should be that of "strong scaling", with the bigger version having a larger scale than multiples of the previous ones.
If this wasn't clear, it is okay to have weak gyros for planes and other techs that are gyro sensitive and it could bother their maneuverability. But Hawkeye and Geocorp gyros are never used for this purpose, neither those who use them would mind if they were stronger; the contrary is true, those who go for Hawkeye and most importantly, Geocorp, go looking for raw power, and most importantly, for space efficiency, so the player gets upset when realizing that those blocks are rather weak and inefficient.

8 GSO gyros having more power than 1 Geocorp gyro has a design flaw of incentivizing players to spam GSO when they look for raw power on their big techs (wich are usually hard to estabilize). Even more unbalanced is the fact that its easier to distribute GSO gyros in any hole or corner, and get a better result than freeing a 2x2x2 hole for a Geocorp gyro to fit in.

So, we lack the incentives for one to use Geocorp gyros or Hawkeye Gyros over GSO gyros, where in addition we have less attach points for each in comparison to GSO spam. It's an always win for GSO, and even if there is a positive or negative impact in costs, it is of little relevancy.


What I propose?


Buff Hawkeye to be more space efficient than GSO, somewhere between 1.2 to 1.6 times.
And further increase the scaling difference with Geocorp, again between 1.2 to 1.6 times Hawkeye.

I hardly believe anyone would say "omg this is too stronk" when going for these gyros, and they can always and should use smaller gyros on their overly sensitive planes.

An example:

GSO lifts 3
Hawkeye lifts 14.4 (1.2 x 4 GSO)
Geocorp lifts 34.56 (1.2 x 2 Hawkeye)

Or

GSO lifts 3
Hawkeye lifts 18 (1.5 x 4 GSO)
Geocorp lifts 54 (1.5 x 2 Hawkeye)


They may sound big but when you are trying to balance a large tech (like a huge hover), this will be very very useful and save much more space for other important stuff, other than boring gyro spam.


Little update: 1.1.0.3 seems to have gone the completely opposite direction, NERFING hawkeye and geocorp. Why??
If it was a bug correction from ZG feedback, then labeling as such would have helped more our understanding than as Design Tweak.
 
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ZeroGravitas

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#17
Edit: That's done now. I've tested it with the same Techs you were using @ZeroGravitas. Thanks for your feedback.
  • The VEN Gyro can now lift a GSO One Block with the test Tech
  • BF can lift 2
  • GSO can lift 3
  • HE can lift 8
  • GC can lift 16
That'll be in the next build.
Nice, so the values are no longer crazy.:) I get slightly different experimental values, but no more than 25% out, so good enough.

Relative to a Venture gyro (which seem to be very close to what they used to be, thank you), Better Future's are 1.5x stronger (stopped my Tron bike doing rolls), GSO 3x, Hawkeye 7x, GeoCorp 16x, etc:

Cropper2019-05-14-01-20-49-7012408.jpg

GSO does have the best torque per unit volume, which I don't know about in terms of lore & corp theme - I thought GSO was supposed to be janky, mediocre, etc. GSO techs will be a little heavier to stabilise than Venture/BF, denser per unit volume. But Hawkeye just as needy in that regard.

GSO also great value in terms of torque per block buck, but HE's and GC's are even better value. In terms of gyro weight, they all have comparable torque per unit mass, which is fine. And health, the lighter gyros are very flimsy too, so kinda look like a real rip-off compared to GSO's.


You *do* realize that using 4 GSO gyros instead of a HE one (or 8 for a GC one) is more effective space wise from those stats?
If you look at the design of the HE gyro block, the spinning part is actually about the same size as the GSO gyro (and Ven/BF's). Think of it more as a ruggedised version, like a hardended laptop might have 4x more mass and size as a regular one, but the same performance:

2019-05-14 Ruggardised laptop verse HE Gyro.jpg

... However, the Hawkeye gyro is currently not that robust, in terms of block health. At 1000, it's only double GSO's and actually *less* than the BF pitch trim gyro (at 1200)!

BF Pitch trim gyro is the real OP block, here - joint best torque per unit volume, nearly best value for force, best torque per unit mass and great health + all over attach points *and* is the only gyro with force that's dynamically controlable by user's "pitch" inputs. I really love it.:D:cool: Although it's kinda too strong for my trike and other small-ish builds, too, preventing them from being able to get all wheels on the floor on even modest slopes (because it stabalises sideways too, of course).


but for bigger blocks such as hawkeye and geocorp, the design should be that of "strong scaling", with the bigger version having a larger scale than multiples of the previous ones.
As I say, I'd be fine with the HE where it is, given it's slim design, if seeing block health benefits. But I'd be interested to see if there's some HE tech designs that use it in a sensible manner yet don't really receive sufficient stabilisation from it...(?)

If you make it much stronger I think it's going to be near impossible to use it for any reasonable sized Hawkeye only helicopter build, for example.

GC, on the other hand, has a spinning core that's volumetrically far larger than the others, so I think there's a stronger argument to giving it greater torque density than all the other gyros. As you say, to help discourage block spam too, of many littler blocks with complex animations, etc.

Argument against being that GeoCorp thrusters are bigger but not more efficient in any way. They're not a flying corp. So, whatever. Again, would like to see tech designs with this that should work but don't.
 
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zanzistar

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#18
Wow, this deep dive into gyros just keeps going. Ok, cool, I'm going to do the following next:
  • Buff HE and GC Gyro healths significantly
  • Nerf GSO Gyro corrective power to 2.5 Blocks
  • Increase the cost of the BF Pitch Trim Gyro
  • Buff the GC and HE Gyro corrective powers slightly (by 2-4 blocks each)
 
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#20
Buff the GC and HE Gyro corrective powers slightly (by 2-4 blocks each)
Hmm, actually, I may have to eat my words; a 4 block weight torque buff will still leave the GC gyro about 10 times weaker than it was back in 1.1.0.2.o_O From that huge stack of 8 GC batteries, down to less than one, now:



What had not fully sunk in for me is that the gyro maths has been way off like this the whole time, or at least since the GC gyro was in EXP [Edit: wrong. torque was 54 blocks in 1.1, just checked]. So this really is a massive hit for a lot of players with big airships, floating bases, etc, that depended upon them. E.g. it seems to be what's going on in this bug report (I've also seen comments from Japanese players on twitter, e.g.1)...:confused:

I've not generally used them, but checking back on my one workshop tech that did, I do note that my (nightmare) Thomas tech has no appreciable self-righting tendency at all (with 6 GC gyros inside).

I think it's totally justifiable to double the GC gyro strength (i.e. from the new value of 20 blocks to 40 blocks). Maybe more...?

But unless you're thinking of making it 5 times greater, [Alternatively], a peace offering might be to prioritise implementing a deliberately ultra-strong new EXP gyro block. E.g. eventually given to Reticule Research, or whomever.
 
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