1.0.1.3 Front Wheels Turning Wrong Way

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#1
With 4 wheel steering it's normal for wheels to steer opposite while sitting still in order to turn in place, but now they if you are traveling forward, and let off the forward key the front end steers the wrong way. Normally short "3 point" turns are the quickest way to turn a tech in place, now they are all but impossible.
 

ZeroGravitas

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#2
Yeah, the only issue is that this new turning wheel configuration is keyed off input control when it should be dependant on tech speed - waiting for the tech to be (almost) stationary before putting the wheels into a circle shape, for more efficient on-the-spot rotation.

(Demo video/snapshot might be handy for clarity.)
 

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#3
Yeah, the only issue is that this new turning wheel configuration is keyed off input control when it should be dependant on tech speed - waiting for the tech to be (almost) stationary before putting the wheels into a circle shape, for more efficient on-the-spot rotation.

(Demo video/snapshot might be handy for clarity.)
Yeah, I was thing the same thing. I'll post a vid shortly.
 
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#4
On my plane the front wheels point towards each other when I turn (its like the starter plane, wheel wise)
 

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#5
Yeah, I was thing the same thing. I'll post a vid shortly.
First time I have ever quoted myself (seems strange for some reason), but just now as I was about to explain my reason for not having posted the aforementioned video (every attempt so far has resulted in recording only a black screen), the answer to my problem just came to me. Ha! What the heck, I'll say it now and then we'll see if i'm correct. The answer has eluded me all day, but it just occurred to me that SLI has got to be it. I bet OBS is trying to capture video from the the wrong card (the one assigned to physics calculation). If I am correct, I shall return shortly with said video. If I am wrong feel free to have a good laugh at my expense. Tune in boys and girls for the exciting conclusion.
 

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#6
Oops! There's nothing quite like quoting yourself to make your typing errors really stand out. If there's a way to embarrass my self, I'll find it by golly! I'm nothing if not thorough. Anyways, back to the thing. Well I was right about that at least. Problem solved! Here's the video, and again sorry for the wait.
 

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#8
Having tried out more wheeled vehicles, I think there might be a split between them, where this new behaviour is actually good (fun) for high speed, low lateral grip wheels (e.g. Venture springers on a modest sized tech) - immediately turning into circle configuration seems to let you spin turn (e.g. for 180s to driving backwards) a little more easily while still maintaining momentum.

But for grippy wheels on techs that have momentum from weight, rather than speed, it's frustrating and bad.

Oops! There's nothing quite like quoting yourself to make your typing errors really stand out.
Dude, can't be as bad as me; every time I go back and read a thread I've commented in I have to go edit a couple of typos I've made... There's probably some right there! ^
 

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#9
Oh, and these changes really break bikes (aside from all my leaning bikes being broken by other changes and tweaks anyway:(). Wheels turn the same way together and cab the bike when letting up an accelerator:


Note that my suggestion of keying the circle turning off speed wouldn't fix this. You'd always want them turning the old way to look right, even on the spot.

I think this could mostly be resolved by making sure that wheels along the centre line turn in the old fashion. But as an exception that might fall afoul of asymmetric bikes (like, with a sidecar, or overhang on one side).
 

Lord Zarnox

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#10
Oh, and these changes really break bikes (aside from all my leaning bikes being broken by other changes and tweaks anyway:(). Wheels turn the same way together and cab the bike when letting up an accelerator:


Note that my suggestion of keying the circle turning off speed wouldn't fix this. You'd always want them turning the old way to look right, even on the spot.

I think this could mostly be resolved by making sure that wheels along the centre line turn in the old fashion. But as an exception that might fall afoul of asymmetric bikes (like, with a sidecar, or overhang on one side).
There should just be a control scheme that is identical to previous versions of the game. That would solve so many problems.
 
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#11
There should just be a control scheme that is identical to previous versions of the game.
Maybe, but from a coding perspective, it'll probably be costly to keep separate parallel systems running bug free and working with other new content. Might not even be possible for to have it work correctly with new AI, etc. I think there are a couple features of the old system that could still be argued for inclusion in the new system, though...
 
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kae

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#12
Hey guys, Tom is working on this systems as we speak and this should be better in a build to come.

Yeah, the only issue is that this new turning wheel configuration is keyed off input control when it should be dependant on tech speed - waiting for the tech to be (almost) stationary before putting the wheels into a circle shape, for more efficient on-the-spot rotation.
Just to clarify (ignoring the bike for the time being, as we're treating that as a different issue), the main problem with the new wheel control system, is that the wheels stop and turn inward too quickly when letting go of the forward key making it hard to do quick short turns. Is that correct?

Another thing I've noticed is that the wheels will not behave correctly when turning if any of the wheels leave the ground, causing the wheels to turn the wrong way for a brief moment before correcting themselves upon landing.

But for grippy wheels on techs that have momentum from weight, rather than speed, it's frustrating and bad.
Can you expand on this in a little bit more detail please ZG, is this the same issue as above where the tech will lose momentum too quickly when letting go of the forward key and turning?

If there's any more information you can add or that's been missed please let me know, if you can add videos with key inputs that would be stellar as well :p

Thanks guys!
 

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#13
the main problem with the new wheel control system, is that
Well, tell us, what is it meant to do now?

There is meant to be a new wheel configuration for better turning on the spot, right? The note makes it sound like it might have been entirely accidental...:
Wheels may orientate incorrectly in particular situations based on their relative position from the Tech's centre of mass.

Can you expand on this in a little bit more detail please
I'll probably do you a bit of video, in a bit. But I was mostly just saying that this issue affects techs differently, depending upon their weight and grip characteristics. I think that heavy techs, with a lot of inertia, but slow, grippy wheels, tended to be affected worst. Whereas lighter Venture techs, with Springers, could slip steer regardless.
 

kae

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#14
Well, tell us, what is it meant to do now?
Sorry worded that a bit wrong

It should be 'the main issue/complaint here is that...'

With the revamp we've changed the way controls are fundamentally coded, but we've tried to get it as close to the old control scheme as possible, obviously anything that feels better is great and we'll try to leave alone, but anything that you feel is worse now than it was before let us know.

But I was mostly just saying that this issue affects techs differently, depending upon their weight and grip characteristics. I think that heavy techs, with a lot of inertia, but slow, grippy wheels, tended to be affected worst. Whereas lighter Venture techs, with Springers, could slip steer regardless.
This is good, thanks.
 

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#15
OK, @kae, so I had a more structured test of wheel turning on different types of tech across 1.0.1 and 1.0.1.6. Recorded a couple of long winded, clumsy testing. I'm used to inverted reversing, because I'm normally too lazy to think about which way the wheels need to point (hence messing up my reverser turns repeatedly).

1.0.1 (Old stable):

1.0.1.6 (Unstable):


I think the main issue with the new system is the lack of run-on turning, when coasting, after you stop pressing forwards/back but continuing to hold [A]/[D] to use that slow down time to turn a bit more too. Circling the wheels before coming to a stop is kinda like pointing your toes together when skiing - it just stops you in a straight line.

This isn't such a bit deal with the GeoCorp wheels, actually, because they stop so quickly and re-orient so slowly. But is more noticeable on faster, fan assisted techs, because it takes time to spool them down.

Thruster powered techs might feel extra weird too, because you can driver forwards using booster (or fans) without pressing [Forwards]. In that case the circled wheel configuration is totally dysfunctional.

And it feels really weird on my little GSO only mobile crafter, when tapping forwards while turning, and it shunts along.

And my little Venture "Valkyrie" didn't actually seem to spin back around any better on fast 180 reverse turns...

So, in conclusion, I think that you should either make it so that techs wait for forward/backwards motion to come to a halt before entering the circle configuration (might be confusing for players to understand what's going on, not sure). Or just revert it to how it was, exactly. I don't think I'd miss it too much. (Or a tick box somewhere to select between the two.)
 

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ZeroGravitas

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#16
Side note 1: I also noticed that a lot of wheels seem to have been nerfed for top speed. Is this deliberate? Or maybe some accident of physic changes? (Like the little Hawkeye tech with Venture wheels was down to 60mph, from 80mph in the previous patch.)

Side note 2: the wheels seemed more jittery and the suspension more bouncy, with more techs drifting off on their wheels...
 
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#18
1.0.1.7 seems to have made this worse. Now they are staying "toed in" longer when taking taking off from a stop also.
I gave it a quick test and found that it seemed far better and made more sense now; what I was asking for (video to follow tomorrow, maybe)...

But I think the issue you're having is that pressing forwards and turn together doesn't override the turning-on-the-spot configuration. That *only* gets disabled one the tech reaches a minimum forwards speed (like 2mph, or something). So you currently have to release turn, to let it start moving, before you can get it to switch to parallel arced wheel rows. (Make any sense?)
 
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#19
Well, that was my point actually. Before if you held both (say forward and left) then it just went straight forward for a second then started turning. Now now if you are sitting still and hit F&L it will just keep turning and never go forward until you let off of left. If its moving slightly (as when performing a 3pt turn) it will start turning, but takes longer to do so. Neither the last way, or the current are correct, but the current way is less "workable" for me than the last. I really don't understand why any of this was done in the first place. Who decided that vehicles need to turn in place anyways? No real vehicle does.
 
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#20
Well, that was my point actually. Before if you held both (say forward and left) then it just went straight forward for a second then started turning. Now now if you are sitting still and hit F&L it will just keep turning and never go forward until you let off of left. If its moving slightly (as when performing a 3pt turn) it will start turning, but takes longer to do so. Neither the last way, or the current are correct, but the current way is less "workable" for me than the last. I really don't understand why any of this was done in the first place. Who decided that vehicles need to turn in place anyways? No real vehicle does.
ALL tracked vechiles, eg tanks bulldozers etc