[0.7.9.2] Feedback - GeoCorp wheels need a buff! (Workaday, Jaws, Behemoth)

ZeroGravitas

Breaker of Games
Joined
Jun 29, 2017
Messages
3,493
Likes
4,584
Points
675
Age
36
Location
UK
Website
www.youtube.com
#1
Seeing as @zanzistar appears to be at that point in the update cycle where he's taking stock of feedback, balancing, etc, I thought it might be worth doing some wheel terrain testing, properly. (Inspired too by this thread.)

I felt that the level 2 GeoCorp wheels are horribly under-powered. I think this set of demonstrations show that. They both fail to climb a modest hill, when used on a modestly heavy tech (my main crafting playthrough tech, currently - GSO level 3, GC level 2).

* "Determinist" body hill climb test:
Time - wheels - status

00:33 - GeoCorp Crusher - pass (good)
01:11 - GeoCorp Jaws - fail (close, needed side-to-side motion)
02:00 - GeoCorp Workadays - fail (required boosters)
03:00 - GeoCorp Caterpiller - pass (easy)
03:43 - GeoCorp Rugged - fail (total - even with boosters)

05:10 - GSO Bumbper - fail (required boosters)
06:08 - GSO Techa Tracks - fail (total)

06:56 - Venture Monster Trucks - pass (super-fun)
07:46 - Venture Springers original - pass (!! But bad turning)

08:23 - Hawkeye Tank Tracks - pass (easy)
09:03 - Hawkeye Warhorse - pass (good)


* Bora Horza - steep climb test:
09:43 - GeoCorp Behemoths - pass (slow)
11:26 - Venture Monster Trucks - pass (easy)

Additional load test (6x GeoCorp Batteries):
12:46 - GeoCorp Behemoths - pass (barely - very slow)
13:40 - Venture monster Trucks

The Level 1 "Crusher" wheels are the gold standard. Even stripped back to a single row (per side), here, they still carry the tech up steep slopes fine. And their attach points are great for using them as a bracket to attach another set of wheels outside of them.

The level 2 GeoCorp wheels are currently not an upgrade - harder to attach, weaker, less grippy. A little more ground clearance from their wheel hubs, which is kind of moot, given how slow they are compared to the GSO bumper wheels.

Even the Original Venture Springer wheels beat these, wheel for wheel, in torque, grip (and speed)!


Then the Behemoth wheels too: On the "GSV Determinist" test they pull up the hill fine (of course just 4 of them is massive overkill for this tech). But on a bigger (but still quite light) tech - my "GSV Bora Horza", they are extremely slow up hills, and barely make it at all when a little battery capacity is added.

By contrast, the Venture Monster truck wheels (and Titans) have insane torque and grip (and speed). Which is OK, please don't nerf. Even wheel for wheel they trounce the Behemoths in hill pull, which just seems ludicrous...

Zip file attached with Snapshots of all techs (+ a couple more) and the Creative save shown, plus a Terrain only save. (It's a nice area, with all biomes near and lots of different hill types, etc.)
 
Last edited:

ZeroGravitas

Breaker of Games
Joined
Jun 29, 2017
Messages
3,493
Likes
4,584
Points
675
Age
36
Location
UK
Website
www.youtube.com
#3
Oh, I forgot to test the GeoCorp Big-Boy wheels, but they're fine - slow and steady.



Previously the staple wheel for all big techs, the main issue with them now is: why would you bother using them in campaign at all? Given that they unlock at the the same level as the Caterpillars and Behemoths?

Even more true of Venture level 3, with all the Springer wheels (original and 3 new types), plus tracks and Titans all unlocking together at level 3. (When level 2 monster truck wheels are the best for almost everything, anyway.)

Wheel blocks in particular are really crying out for an increase in the number of XP levels per corporation!

Finally, these wheels are totally useless, please fix:
 

MrTwister

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2017
Messages
537
Likes
772
Points
505
Age
34
#5
W
Oh, I forgot to test the GeoCorp Big-Boy wheels, but they're fine - slow and steady.



Previously the staple wheel for all big techs, the main issue with them now is: why would you bother using them in campaign at all? Given that they unlock at the the same level as the Caterpillars and Behemoths?

Even more true of Venture level 3, with all the Springer wheels (original and 3 new types), plus tracks and Titans all unlocking together at level 3. (When level 2 monster truck wheels are the best for almost everything, anyway.)

Wheel blocks in particular are really crying out for an increase in the number of XP levels per corporation!

Finally, these wheels are totally useless, please fix:

Wtf - these are the cutters, not wheels :D
 
Likes: ZeroGravitas

MrTwister

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2017
Messages
537
Likes
772
Points
505
Age
34
#6
I'm thinking Workaday wheel could get a slight speed upgrade - circa +5 +8 km/h. To make it a "speedy" Geocorp choice.

It is also a rubber wheel, which makes sense to make it faster.'
Rugged could also get a slight speed upgrade +3 +4 km/h.

This would keep these slightly more relevant mid-late game and a choice to consider for different situations.
 

zanzistar

PAYLOAD STUDIOS
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
918
Likes
1,552
Points
505
Age
33
Location
London
#8
Cool,

I increased Torque for the following wheels:
  • GeoCorp Rugged Wheel

  • GeoCorp Krusher Wheel

  • GeoCorp Workaday Wheel

  • GeoCorp Jaws Wheel

  • GeoCorp Behemoth Wheel

  • GSO Bumper Wheel

  • GSO Muddy Dog Wheel

I also slightly decreased the torque for the GeoCorp Caterpillar Tracks, because they were mental.
 

JimmyBlether

A Kerbal Demon
Joined
Jul 31, 2017
Messages
2,660
Likes
2,981
Points
570
Location
The Kraken's Lair
Website
tinyurl.com
#9
Cool,

I increased Torque for the following wheels:
  • GeoCorp Rugged Wheel

  • GeoCorp Krusher Wheel

  • GeoCorp Workaday Wheel

  • GeoCorp Jaws Wheel

  • GeoCorp Behemoth Wheel

  • GSO Bumper Wheel

  • GSO Muddy Dog Wheel

I also slightly decreased the torque for the GeoCorp Caterpillar Tracks, because they were mental.
Thanks.
I also slightly decreased the torque for the GeoCorp Caterpillar Tracks, because they were mental.
Err, yeah...
 

ZeroGravitas

Breaker of Games
Joined
Jun 29, 2017
Messages
3,493
Likes
4,584
Points
675
Age
36
Location
UK
Website
www.youtube.com
#10
Likes: JimmyBlether

zanzistar

PAYLOAD STUDIOS
Joined
Aug 13, 2014
Messages
918
Likes
1,552
Points
505
Age
33
Location
London
#12
Hey, any chance the Muddy Dog could see a moderate weight capacity increase? The suspension goes almost as far down as it can really, really easily.
Sure, I'll take a look, TBH I was using them for most of my playthrough yesterday and they seemed ok to me, but I was only using a mid-weight Tech. I'll have a look at where they top out.
 

Icarus_The_King_Of_Angels

S H I N Y Mad Scientist
Joined
Nov 6, 2015
Messages
564
Likes
911
Points
505
Age
22
Location
Winterpeg
#13
Sure, I'll take a look, TBH I was using them for most of my playthrough yesterday and they seemed ok to me, but I was only using a mid-weight Tech. I'll have a look at where they top out.
Sorry, meant an increase to the weight at which the suspension begins to compress, not the max capacity.

Anyway, thanks! ^v^
 

ZeroGravitas

Breaker of Games
Joined
Jun 29, 2017
Messages
3,493
Likes
4,584
Points
675
Age
36
Location
UK
Website
www.youtube.com
#15
I was posting these exact complaints about GC wheels almost a year ago and I wasn't alone.
Link me and I'll give credit where it's due.:)

But sure, most suggestions have been suggested before, etc, and it's luck (and/or the way you say it) as to whether it finally gets acted upon. (Dev time, etc.) It's worth re-posting or digging up important stuff that's still fully relevant, I think.
 

Captain Load

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2016
Messages
392
Likes
281
Points
465
#16
Honestly after having a couple threads disappear on me I can't even be bothered to look anymore.

My biggest complaint was the big GC climbing wheels that only attach to the sides of a tech (can never remember their name). Their absolutely inferior to the smaller ones. The second most annoying issue is with the GC Big Boy wheels. They seem (at least to my eyes) to have better traction when a hostile AI is using them than when I do. If I had to estimate the difference I'd say the AI has about a 20% advantage in grip. Keep in mind I'm only talking about ascending inclines: large attacking AIs will typically only get within Megaton range and then very slowly creep forward, so I haven't been able to see if they also slide around like their on ice when maneuvering (the way a similarly-sized, human-controlled tech does). I can say, however, that I've never seen one slide off a hill it was trying to climb. The Big Boy techs also seem to be a little faster than they should be when AIs control them. This leads me to believe that the AI may be getting a bonus on weight offset for these wheels and perhaps with others as well. Almost every PC game I've played grants the AI these kinds of bonuses to help make it more effective..its practically expected in SP gaming. I've experimented with this extensively, sometimes building techs out of the wreckage of these monsters, trying to recreate them as exactly as possible. On the same terrain where I took them down I can never match the climbing power of an AI-driven tech that's only supported by Big Boys. I don't know if allied AIs get this same possible advantage because their too dumb to even handle most uneven terrain.

I'm fully aware that I could be totally misconstruing what's going..this is just how it looks to me.
 
Likes: Lord Zarnox

ZeroGravitas

Breaker of Games
Joined
Jun 29, 2017
Messages
3,493
Likes
4,584
Points
675
Age
36
Location
UK
Website
www.youtube.com
#19
This leads me to believe that the AI may be getting a bonus on weight offset for these wheels and perhaps with others as well. Almost every PC game I've played grants the AI these kinds of bonuses to help make it more effective.
I've seen AI manage to turn-topple techs in R&D that I've been unable to, for the life of me. So yeah, I also suspected that the game tweaks physics in some way to assist it, or gives it a slightly different control system.
 

ZeroGravitas

Breaker of Games
Joined
Jun 29, 2017
Messages
3,493
Likes
4,584
Points
675
Age
36
Location
UK
Website
www.youtube.com
#20
I re-checked my test-round save in 0.8.1 and I like the improvements - medium and large GC wheels now feel good up modest hills, without being overpowered.:)

Just a shame that the GC tracks (previously super-fun for frolicing in the mountains) are now garbage (can't turn at all while on a hill, etc).