[0.7.7.2] Why does the terrain keep changing?

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Pink Kitty

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Every update the terrain changes, even though there's no notes about it.

And i mean, 'every update since the new terrain went in.'
Haven't checked [0.7.7.3] yet.

but yeah, even had the terrain change after the bumper bars went in.

Is this supposed to be happening?

Sorry, no pics, just every time i load after an update, there's bumps where there were not, flats where there used to be hills and so on.
 
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ZeroGravitas

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Every update the terrain changes, even though there's no notes about it.
This is what I don't get. And I mean, I literally don't get terrain changes in my campaign save file that I started in 0.7.5.0.

I don't know if that game version is special, or I'm just special, because I've never started a second campaign, as yet.

I was trying to clarify with @Adriano, in this thread, what is supposed to happen, because he says it should currently be as you see:
As of right now, the game will use whatever algorithm is in the code to generate the terrain whenever the save game is loaded, which is why you sometimes get floating objects in the game world when you load a save originally created with an older version. We have a plan to try and tie this into the save data so that terrain will always be generated the same way it was the first time the save was created, to prevent floating objects when we tweak the terrain in the future, though not sure when that will be introduced.
But my save file (attached) has a different game build ID version listed for terrain and save:
"m_WorldSeed":"WMDrafPdXQi07Fk","m_WorldGenVersion":15541,"m_SaveVersion":17625
And starting a new world (in creative) with the same seed produces an alternate terrain reality to what I see in continued campaign. So the old world gen code must still be in the game (or one of the older versions, at least).
Here's the exact same spot (and viewing angle), with the exact same map seed (WMDrafPdXQi07Fk), both taken today in 0.7.7.1 - my old 0.7.5.0 world (top) and a new Creative mode world (bottom):

There are definite similarities, with the mountain, trading post location and grasslands areas, but... massive desert.

Also, I was in brain idle mode earlier, so went for a 35km trip, in my old world, in a direction I'd not been before. There was no ice biome, no new mountain sub-biomes or grasslands valleys (after passing ~15 monuments and 7-8 salt flats and columns biomes, each).
 

Django

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Every update the terrain changes
Hey PK, care to elaborate? Are you loading the same save file (created in say 7.7 stable) in the various versions (7.7.1, 7.7.2) and seeing different terrain? (This would be bad)
Or are you starting a new game in the different versions using the same seed and location and getting different results? (This is expected behaviour in case of terrain changes, though I'd have expected it mentioned in release notes)

As you might expect, seeds + coordinates, pics and save files would be really useful here..
 

ZeroGravitas

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Are you loading the same save file (created in say 7.7 stable) in the various versions (7.7.1, 7.7.2) and seeing different terrain? (This would be bad)
Ahah. That sounds like clarification that terrain generation algorithm should be anchored to the game version it was created in, then... Is that a change? If so when was it brought in, roughly? Or was terrain change always a bug?
 
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Pink Kitty

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Hey PK, care to elaborate? Are you loading the same save file (created in say 7.7 stable) in the various versions (7.7.1, 7.7.2) and seeing different terrain? (This would be bad)
Or are you starting a new game in the different versions using the same seed and location and getting different results? (This is expected behaviour in case of terrain changes, though I'd have expected it mentioned in release notes)

As you might expect, seeds + coordinates, pics and save files would be really useful here..
I started a save in [0.7.xxx] Whichever one it was that had the new terrain.
I saw terrain changes every update, whether new terrain (like ice) was added, or not.

After a few updates, i wanted to check something out that required me to start fresh in order to get something. Suzi maybe?
So i started fresh with the new update, and saw more changes. Not huge ones, like ice where salt flats used to be.
But noticeable ones, like a box canyon no longer having steep walls on 3 side,s, but 2 steep walls, and a half height hill.

Or a flat sand area now having rough terrain.
hmm. Entirely stuff happening on the new plateau mountains, now that i think of it.

Same seed, same location. I'll try and organize some pics tomorrow, But TBH it's mostly just me noticing that stuff is different, rather than before or after shots.
 

Lord Zarnox

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Haven't checked [0.7.7.3] yet.
Assuming you mean terrain changing for the world, rather than the seed, it is the same in [0.7.7.3] as it is in [0.7.7.2]. At least, as far as I can tell. I did update it today, and played both versions of the same world today.
 

Django

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Is that a change? If so when was it brought in, roughly?
I think that was changed around May. That's not to say we've not had our share of issues with the terrain generation and versioning going wrong.

Ideally, the terrain should never change if you are continuing a save file from an older version (excluding bugs), to preserve a game that's already in progress.

Meanwhile we can add new and exciting terrain features as we move forward, without needing to worry about destroying peoples hard work. Any new games started will feature this new terrain.
This indeed means that using the same seed and location will look different between terrain versions - There is no intention to keep these the same.

I started a save in [0.7.xxx] Whichever one it was that had the new terrain.
I saw terrain changes every update, whether new terrain (like ice) was added, or not.
That sounds like the bugs we were experiencing around the time of early 7.6.x unstables.

So i started fresh with the new update, and saw more changes.
This is entirely expected and desirable behaviour from our point of view.
 
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Pink Kitty

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This is entirely expected and desirable behaviour from our point of view.
and it kept happening.

The problem is, i keep seeing terrain changes.
From old continued saves, from new saves, and from new saves continued through updates.

if the [0.7.7.3] update has no changes i can spot, it is likely the first since the [0.7.6.x] updates you mention.

IF it stops, great.
but there is a problem somewhere. Because stuff keeps changing, even when there's not any terrain updates mentioned.
 

Django

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from new saves continued through updates
Eg started in 7.7.1, and loaded up in 7.7.2 - you see changes?

While I dread the prospect it's certainly possible there is still bugs to resolve in the terrain versioning system.
I hate to say it.. but a save game from an older version (eg 7.7.1 in the example above) that loads incorrectly in a newer version would really help us track this down.
 
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Pink Kitty

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Eg started in 7.7.1, and loaded up in 7.7.2 - you see changes?

While I dread the prospect it's certainly possible there is still bugs to resolve in the terrain versioning system.
I hate to say it.. but a save game from an older version (eg 7.7.1 in the example above) that loads incorrectly in a newer version would really help us track this down.
I tend to have a clean out every once in a while, but i'll see if i can track down an old save.
 
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Pink Kitty

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Ok, so here are 2 saves.

One rally old, with very diff terrain in my preferred spot (-1371, 3167) Seed: FatBlackCat2
This one is 'behaving' in that the terrain is fixed on the old pattern.

One less old with the terrain i mostly expect. This is the one that is 'playing up'.



This is where my base used to be. I built it horizontally from the walls.
It used to be a box canyon with walls as steep as the wall directly in front of my tech.
On 3 sides.
And close enough that i could build a roof over the top.
I was going to show it off.

But, after an update, the base just popped off, as the ground it was attached to, just vanished.
also, see that ramp? That wasn't there before.

and the [0.7.7.2] update did this:

Those craters used to be just typical hills, not craters.
 

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Adriano

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@Pink Kitty Spent a while looking into this, here's what I found.

"Old save boxC" is a save created some time ago, in version 0.7.4.4. This is around the time when we introduced a big change in how terrain was generated, which affected all save games. These changes involved the shape and size of hills, plains, mountains etc. If you continue to update TerraTech and play this very same save, you may notice small differences (i.e. height changes on inclines), but none of the bigger changes (i.e. new biomes).

"Newer save boxc test" was created in 0.7.6.4. Between 0.7.4.4 and 0.7.6.4 there have been more terrain tweaks, including adding new biomes. That means if you start a new save in 0.7.6.4, even with the same seed, you're likely to notice bigger differences, due to the new biomes and sub biomes, as the terrain generation has changed substantially in that time. Seeds will have changed to accommodate them.

I tried loading your seed FatBlackCat2 in Creative in 0.7.7.1, 0.7.7.2, 0.7.7.3, and went to the co-ordinates on the images. All of them looked the same. The difference between the two save games is probably due to us trying to preserve the terrain in older saves when introducing big terrain changes, so as not to mess up the players save file dramatically.

Would this explain what you're seeing?
 

Adriano

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This is what I don't get. And I mean, I literally don't get terrain changes in my campaign save file that I started in 0.7.5.0.

I don't know if that game version is special, or I'm just special, because I've never started a second campaign, as yet.

I was trying to clarify with @Adriano, in this thread, what is supposed to happen, because he says it should currently be as you see:


But my save file (attached) has a different game build ID version listed for terrain and save:


And starting a new world (in creative) with the same seed produces an alternate terrain reality to what I see in continued campaign. So the old world gen code must still be in the game (or one of the older versions, at least).
Sorry @ZeroGravitas , I think I wasn't fully clear with this statement.

If you have a save from 0.7.5 and load it in 0.7.7, there will be differences, but very small ones. Things like changes to the height of mountains or rocky parts of biomes that existed in the terrain code when that save was created might be seen, but aren't always obvious. Big changes like new biomes and sub-biomes, you won't see, because they're not there. Adding that into a pre-existing world would cause far too many issues with the world. So we do preserve aspects of the terrain within a save file, to prevent huge disasters. The issues players experienced during the 0.7.6 run of builds were down to errors on our part.

Is that any clearer? Sorry for the confusion. Will also comment on the other thread I originally posted on.
 
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