[0.7.7.0] Missing ground texture from world tile corner (white/black scar).

ZeroGravitas

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#1
Not sure how relevant this report will be, given that this world was created in 0.7.5.0 and saved in pretty much every unstable since. I'd been on this world tile, the other side of the monument, but quite possibly never looked at this spot. Attached save file still shows this it upon restart and reload:



The void appears white when HDR graphics setting is off. Or black when HDR is on. No major differences with other graphics changes.



This is definitely at the corner of a world tile, from checking the co-ordinates on my lookup list.
 

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Adriano

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#2
Cheers @ZeroGravitas , I had this when loading some saves from 0.7.5 as well. Down to the changes in terrain generation in that time, nothing we can do about it I'm afraid. Will only occur in older saves though... hopefully ;)
 

ZeroGravitas

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#3
Down to the changes in terrain generation in that time, nothing we can do about it I'm afraid. Will only occur in older saves though... hopefully ;)
Fingers crossed, yeah.

Although, I never noticed any changes to the landscape between patches. I know the save file records the game version of it's terrain generation, does it (or should it) also continue to use that old algorithm to render the world in later game versions...? (That's what confused me about people getting submerged bases and missions, is that I'd not seen changes.)
 

Adriano

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#4
As of right now, the game will use whatever algorithm is in the code to generate the terrain whenever the save game is loaded, which is why you sometimes get floating objects in the game world when you load a save originally created with an older version. We have a plan to try and tie this into the save data so that terrain will always be generated the same way it was the first time the save was created, to prevent floating objects when we tweak the terrain in the future, though not sure when that will be introduced.
 
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Zed

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#5
Fingers crossed, yeah.

Although, I never noticed any changes to the landscape between patches. I know the save file records the game version of it's terrain generation, does it (or should it) also continue to use that old algorithm to render the world in later game versions...? (That's what confused me about people getting submerged bases and missions, is that I'd not seen changes.)
By my understanding the algorithm mentioned by @Adriano generates the terrain and has been recently tweaked more often than normal due to the 0.7.6 unstables addressing the Seismic activity issues in V 0.7.6 Stable and earlier and should be less noticeable from here on out regarding sunken bases and the like.

For an analogy, think of the algorithm as an enigma machine printing out page after page (individual mapchunks of 384 {or larger, probably 512 / 768 otherwise the "resources falling off of bases" would be more prevalent,} with the vanishing bases probably anchored directly on the border of two or more mapchunks) with the mapseed serving as the cypher. A supporting example of this would be my Serendipitous thread where the terrain appeared similar between two seeds due to a minor typo.

Cheers @ZeroGravitas , I had this when loading some saves from 0.7.5 as well. Down to the changes in terrain generation in that time, nothing we can do about it I'm afraid. Will only occur in older saves though... hopefully ;)
Now that Savegames show their version number perhaps a version[check] will be added to the code and prevent older saves from campaign / creative from loading to prevent users from encountering this issue.
 
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Adriano

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#6
Now that Savegames show their version number perhaps a version[check] will be added to the code and prevent older saves from campaign / creative from loading to prevent users from encountering this issue.
From a testing point of view, this would be my preferred choice in all honesty. However it does prevent the player from continuing their save game once they update, which we would prefer not to do if we can avoid it.
 
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Zed

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#7
From a testing point of view, this would be my preferred choice in all honesty. However it does prevent the player from continuing their save game once they update, which we would prefer not to do if we can avoid it.
I can see both sides of the issue and would propose the following compromise:

A stable savegame left in stable mode should be typically permitted to be run by itself and the next three versions (0.7.4 would work in 0.7.8 but not 0.7.9 by this theory)

An Unstable Savegame should be locked out when attempting to go beyond 0.2.x versions (a 0.7.4.6 campaign seed would already be locked out at 0.7.7 but would have (in theory) loaded for 0.7.6.10 unstable)

TerraTech is in Early Access After all, And this type of compromise would not (in my opinion) be overly harsh and yet cut down on the "This bug is being caused by an archaic mapseed which simply does not work with the current algorithms." which would streamline troubleshooting efforts to ensure that 1.0 will release prior to 2019.
 

harpo99999

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#8
another idea for the issue of old maps/games in a newer version would be to pop up a warning like
'the game/map is from x.x.x.x version and is possibly not going to work, does the player want to continue?'
and if there is a major difference in the mapping code between versions a popup like
'this game/map is form a in-compatable version and is likely to CAUSE problems, these problems should not be reported as the save is not compatable. do you REALLY want to crash the game?'
 
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ZeroGravitas

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#9
As of right now, the game will use whatever algorithm is in the code to generate the terrain whenever the save game is loaded
Nope. Sorry.:p My game doesn't do that anyway.

Here's the exact same spot (and viewing angle), with the exact same map seed (WMDrafPdXQi07Fk), both taken today in 0.7.7.1 - my old 0.7.5.0 world (top) and a new Creative mode world (bottom):

There are definite similarities, with the mountain, trading post location and grasslands areas, but... massive desert.

Also, I was in brain idle mode earlier, so went for a 35km trip, in my old world, in a direction I'd not been before. There was no ice biome, no new mountain sub-biomes or grasslands valleys (after passing ~15 monuments and 7-8 salt flats and columns biomes, each).

I don't know if games created earlier or later than my campaign do get terrain updates, but mine doesn't. And certainly the game is capable of using the old generating code.
 

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ZeroGravitas

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#10
"This bug is being caused by an archaic mapseed which simply does not work with the current algorithms."
You get that the 'seed' code is just randomising data, kinda like telling a croupier how many (billion) times to shuffle an (impossibly large) deck of cards? It's not a blueprint.

Also, given that TerraTech can clearly continue to use (some) old world gen algorithms, I don't see there's any point forcing players to restart arbitrarily (I expect they're relatively light-weight code, storage wise.)

Ideally (in implausibly and unnecessarily difficult to implement, land) the game would keep track of (and save) which world tiles the player had ever visited, and transition to using the new world gen code in newly explored parts (while keeping the old parts as-is). Since I expect there will continue to be tweaks and additions to world gen for a long time to come, after V1.0, etc. So this issue won't be locked down with an immutable algorithm.
 

Adriano

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#11
Nope. Sorry.:p My game doesn't do that anyway.

Here's the exact same spot (and viewing angle), with the exact same map seed (WMDrafPdXQi07Fk), both taken today in 0.7.7.1 - my old 0.7.5.0 world (top) and a new Creative mode world (bottom):

There are definite similarities, with the mountain, trading post location and grasslands areas, but... massive desert.

Also, I was in brain idle mode earlier, so went for a 35km trip, in my old world, in a direction I'd not been before. There was no ice biome, no new mountain sub-biomes or grasslands valleys (after passing ~15 monuments and 7-8 salt flats and columns biomes, each).

I don't know if games created earlier or later than my campaign do get terrain updates, but mine doesn't. And certainly the game is capable of using the old generating code.
This is pretty much what I would expect to happen. The game is preserving your Campaign terrain from 0.7.5. It's creating a brand new terrain in 0.7.7, even with the same seed, because it can now add in sub biomes, the Ice biome etc. As for you not finding the Ice or Pillars biome... I start a new save game a few times a week, and it's rare for me to just stumble on the Pillars biome. In fact, Sammi has been here a week and only saw it today for the first time. The Pillars biome in particular is very rare. I guess in this case you've just been unlucky ;)
 
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ZeroGravitas

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#12
it's rare for me to just stumble on the Pillars biome. In fact, Sammi has been here a week and only saw it today for the first time.
Oh no, I saw plenty of pillars on that trip, about as many as salt flats (though less expansive). Don't know if you guys have reduced the incidence since 0.7.5, though.
(after passing ~15 monuments and 7-8 salt flats and columns biomes, each).
But thanks for coming back to explain (elsewhere, too):):
Sorry @ZeroGravitas , I think I wasn't fully clear with this statement.

If you have a save from 0.7.5 and load it in 0.7.7, there will be differences, but very small ones.
A bit of a 2 tier terrain generation system then.:) That might explain why I do have 1 trade station that is slightly floating. I thought maybe a transitory glitch around those 0.7.6.x issues that there were.
 

Adriano

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#13
@ZeroGravitas Out of interest, I loaded up your seed in our editor, and did indeed find an Ice biome located at (5628, -5436). Also, since I'm sure you'll be interested, this is a top down view of the map of your seed, colour co-ordinated to the biomes.

upload_2017-10-13_14-35-14.png

This covers around 5000 units in each direction, the centre green mass being the starting grasslands (0, 0). Purple is the Pillars biome, blue is the Ice Biome. So as you can see, they're both very rare. Both are set to appear further away since they're a bit more challenging to navigate for beginners.

Green = Grasslands
Brown = Desert
White = Saltflats
Red = Mountains
Purple = Pillars
Blue = Ice

Shades of each colour are sub biomes.
 

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ZeroGravitas

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#14
Also, since I'm sure you'll be interested, this is a top down view of the map of your seed, colour co-ordinated to the biomes.

Wow.... That is awesome! :eek::D Almost has me hyped enough about wanting a full map view to go and create that suggestion thread to try and pressure you guys to making it happen sooner! (Almost.)

an Ice biome located at (5628, -5436).
Maybe... It melted...? (You were saying that I should be seeing it...? In my old world: WMDrafPdXQi07Fk ?):


Save file attached at this location, as shown.

Edit: some biome transition features on the way there seemed to match up, but saw a couple pillars biomes too. (Also went to 2 of the wrong corners first... Darn coordinates systems, rotating mini-maps and brain.)
 

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Adriano

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#15
Only if you create a fresh save in a version that contained the Ice biomes. The save you attached predates this, so no iciness for you I'm afraid. But if you start a new Creative or Campaign with that seed in the latest version, it'll be there. I've attached a Creative save to illustrate, but it was made in the editor so can't be sure it'll load for you.
 

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harpo99999

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#17
adriano, is there any chance that us players might get the map overview ability so we can see the biome patterning for our games????
 
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ZeroGravitas

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#18
is there any chance that us players might get the map overview ability so we can see the biome patterning for our games????
Clearly, they have the technology. And it's been said on the live stream (at least once), maybe elsewhere, that it's a thing they'd like to do.:) Before 1.0 would be great.;)


I've just noticed that the biomes (in that map) appear to be blobs dropped at every world tile corner, then spread out to a fuzzy interface with adjacent biome blobs. I.e. it's a grid, that becomes fairly apparent in map view, but I wouldn't have guessed from being in-game (some very rectangular mountain areas, there.

Kind of a simpler looking algorithm than I imagined (well, obviously don't know how biome type of blobs are semi-randomly selected), although maybe the elevation mapping is a more complex mathematical function...?
 

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#19
Not sure if we talked about this elsewhere too, but it's clear that this texture missing from tile corners issue isn't related to changes in world generation. In Lathrix's latest video @8:26:



And me checking out his world seed (zNttsDuTFyKQyvB) in creative mode:



Both of us in version 0.8.2. My creative save attached.

@kae is this definitely logged?
 

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